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Thread: Compare and contrast...

  1. #1
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Compare and contrast...

    There is a very good discussion going on about how good/bad a job Krivsky is doing. I'd like to compare the job he is doing with what JimBo is doing with the Nats.

    There are some similarities. JimBo has added some very good young talent. His fetish remains Toolsy OF's, but he flat stole Milledge from the Mets, and I like the Dukes acquisition as well. He's set up for the future at C with Flores, who needs a little more seasoning, but for now is a good backup. His infield minus Zimmerman is a mess, and 1B is a problem. I like a lot of his relievers, Hanrahan moving to the pen is a good move, and Rauch/Cordero is a potent combo at the back end, similar to Burton/Weather/Cordero for the Reds.

    Milledge reminds me of BP, having fallen out of favor at a young age. Tremendous upside. Dukes reminds me of Hamilton in that he must be monitored. We all know the upside and flaws of WMP and Kearns.

    JimBo needs some health from his rotation, but I think the Nats can make it tough on the two teams that expect to win the NL East.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #2
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    JimBo needs some health from his rotation, but I think the Nats can make it tough on the two teams that expect to win the NL East.
    Honestly, I don't see the Nats anywhere but the basement.
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    [QUOTE=TRF;1570869]
    JimBo needs some health from his rotation....QUOTE]

    First he needs a rotation....

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    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I'd like to compare the job he is doing with what JimBo is doing with the Nats.
    I don't see the comparison. As I see it, the Reds desperately needed pitching and had a surplus of outfielders. Krivsky traded from depth and acquired a need. The jury is still out on the verdict.

    Bowden had two second basemen, two first basemen, no qualified shortstops, an outfield, but he needed starting pitching. He once again acquired more outfielders. The jury is also still out.
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  6. #5
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Shawn Hill, if healthy is at least as good as Arroyo. Patterson also is finally healthy after two years. Can he return to his 2005 form? Bergman is right now better than Belisle is, better than Arroyo too (IMO). I'd love him in the Reds rotation. Lannan and Chico have the benefit of being LH, but don't have much in the way of upside.

    My point is I see some similarities in the two. Both GM's excel at dumpster diving. both are doing whatever they can to flood their system with talent, and often do so through unconventional means. And at least one isn't afraid to use a Segway.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  7. #6
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    I like what Jimbo has been doing with the draft and intl markets.

    The intent is good. I will be a few years before we can judge execution. But I like the direction.

  8. #7
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    I don't see the comparison. As I see it, the Reds desperately needed pitching and had a surplus of outfielders. Krivsky traded from depth and acquired a need. The jury is still out on the verdict.

    Bowden had two second basemen, two first basemen, no qualified shortstops, an outfield, but he needed starting pitching. He once again acquired more outfielders. The jury is also still out.
    The Reds also had a surplus of 2B and went and got Phillips. Note I didn't say good 2B, but a surplus nonetheless. They had a surplus of OF's and took a chance on Hamilton.

    JimBo may have had a surplus of OF's but now he has 4 that will set up his OF for a decade or more. He's got a very, very good 3B in Zimmerman, a position battle at 1B between Young and Johnson with Marrero waiting in the wings. Bowden also spent a ton of money on the draft, 5th most last year. 6 of the Nats top 10 prospects are pitchers, 3 of them LH. bodes well for their future. Krivsky is just coming into his own while Bowden is learning how to deal with an owner that isn't afraid to spend a little. Krivsky is on his 3rd manager, Bowden is on his first really as he had Robby assigned to him, and for his first choice, he did very well in selecting Acta.

    I'm not saying they are the same guy, but they have a lot of similarities.
    Last edited by TRF; 03-13-2008 at 04:13 PM.
    Suck it up cupcake.

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Shawn Hill, if healthy is at least as good as Arroyo. Patterson also is finally healthy after two years. Can he return to his 2005 form? Bergman is right now better than Belisle is, better than Arroyo too (IMO).
    In order:

    No he's not.

    I doubt that.

    No he's not.
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  10. #9
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031103372.html

    Nats Still Don't Know Opening Day Pitcher

    By Barry Svrluga
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, March 12, 2008; E01

    LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla., March 11 -- With no fans in the stands and half his teammates preparing for a road trip, Shawn Hill played catch with an athletic trainer early Tuesday afternoon in right field at Space Coast Stadium, two sets of 25 nice, easy tosses. The Washington Nationals right-hander said he considered the experience a "positive sign" as he tries to overcome mysterious pain in his right forearm, and the club plans for him to throw again on Thursday.

    Hill, though, is realistic: Opening Night is two weeks from Sunday. Given Hill's current condition -- with no definite plans to throw from a mound and thus build up arm strength -- the Nationals head into their final 17 exhibition games giving no public indications as to who will throw the first pitch at Nationals Park.

    "To be honest, I don't know that I'll be ready, even if I crank it up from today full speed," Hill said Tuesday. "I don't know that I would even be able to get there. . . . It would be an honor. But at the same time, if I can get back and . . . if I can make 30-some odd starts, I'll be more than happy. I can live without that opener."

    Hill's forearm is not the only blip the Nationals are taking into consideration as they try to form a five-man rotation over the next two weeks. They are dealing with Odalis P¿rez's visa issues, John Patterson's arm strength, Matt Chico's mechanics, John Lannan's inexperience and a bit of inconsistency from both Jason Bergmann and Tim Redding.

    Plus, the Nationals could still pursue another pitcher. Jeff Weaver, who won the clinching game of the 2006 World Series for St. Louis but struggled to a 6.20 ERA in 27 starts for Seattle last season, is still a free agent. His younger brother, Jered, is a pitcher for the Los Angeles Angels, and he told the Los Angeles Times that the Cardinals and Nationals have been in touch with Weaver.

    Washington General Manager Jim Bowden declined to comment Tuesday night on the club's potential interest in Weaver. It is all but certain, however, that the club would offer Weaver no more than a one-year deal, one that might not be guaranteed.

    "There's a lot of questions left to be answered in the next couple of weeks," Bowden said. "We have more choices. . . . We're not there yet."

    Even if the Nationals landed Weaver, it's doubtful he would be in shape by the opener. So, as Manager Manny Acta said recently, "We have Plan B's." Acta, Bowden and pitching coach Randy St. Claire are working through several contingencies.

    One possibility under consideration is to bring only four starters to Washington for Opening Night. The Nationals have a day off scheduled after playing two games, then play six straight. It's possible, then, that the club could ask the third starter to pitch April 2 in Philadelphia, then come back on three days' rest to pitch April 6 in St. Louis. The fourth starter, too, would have to pitch on short rest -- April 3 in Philadelphia and then April 7 at home against Florida.

    If the Nationals choose that route, Hill wouldn't be needed until April 13 against Atlanta at Nationals Park.

    "I think probably four starters and seven relievers is how we start," Bowden said. "But it's always something that could change."

    Even if that's the choice, it still leaves the question of who throws the first pitch at the new park March 30 against the Braves. Patterson was the Opening Day starter in 2007, an experience for which, in retrospect, he wasn't ready. He allowed six runs in 3 2/3 innings in a loss to Florida, the first of just seven starts he made in a season cut short by injuries.

    But Patterson -- who threw three scoreless innings, allowed three singles, walked none and struck out three Tuesday night against the Braves at Disney's Wide World of Sports -- has professed his health all spring, and club officials have said he has met every mark. Asked if Patterson would be a candidate to start the opener, Acta said, "I don't see why not."

    But there is another wrinkle. If Patterson is to start the opener, he must make one of his remaining three spring starts on short rest. Patterson is, as much as anything, a pitcher who prefers a routine. Still, Acta said there is plenty of time to handle Patterson carefully -- if, indeed, he is the choice for the opener.

    "That's why we're not doing it right now, panicking -- 'Oh, Shawn's not ready, maybe we should move [Patterson] right now,' " Acta said. "No. He's coming off an injury, so we're going to wait up until the end of camp, see where Hill is, see where Patterson is -- which is still two weeks to go. And then if we have to make a move, we'll make it."

    Patterson's start Tuesday night was more impressive on paper than it was in person. His fastball hovered mostly between 85 and 87 mph, and he needed 60 pitches to survive three innings. Patterson, though, had a sharp breaking ball, and said he isn't concerned with his velocity because he still needs to build arm strength.

    "If I was obsessing about it, I'd have stood out there and tried to throw it through the wall," he said.

    Patterson knows, too, all the questions about who will throw the opener. He said it's "an important day for the city of Washington." But with more than two weeks left, he's not obsessed with that, either.

    "Right now, nobody knows who it is," Patterson said. "We're all trying to earn that spot. They're not just going to give it to somebody."

  11. #10
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    In order:

    No he's not.

    I doubt that.

    No he's not.
    Bergman isn't better than Belisle? I think he is. Hill may have been a product of his home park, but he's pretty good. I actually hope Patterson is 100%. Anything to stifle the Mets and Phils a little.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Bergman isn't better than Belisle? I think he is. Hill may have been a product of his home park, but he's pretty good. I actually hope Patterson is 100%. Anything to stifle the Mets and Phils a little.
    Bergmann 07 (age 25)
    K/9: 6.71
    BB/9: 3.28
    HR/9: 1.40
    BABIP: .253
    GB/FB: 0.66
    DIPS: 4.88

    Belisle 07 (age 26)
    K/9: 6.33
    BB/9: 2.18
    HR/9: 1.32
    BABIP: .331
    GB/FB: 1.15
    DIPS: 4.54

    Bergman sure looks like he got a nice bump from being an extreme flyball pitcher in a big park. Home ERA was 2 runs better than his road ERA. Put Bergman in GABP with our defense and let's see how they compare...
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-13-2008 at 04:34 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #12
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    The Nats will stink this year and Bowden will be fired before the world series, if not sooner.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  14. #13
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Bergman isn't better than Belisle? I think he is. Hill may have been a product of his home park, but he's pretty good. I actually hope Patterson is 100%. Anything to stifle the Mets and Phils a little.
    Hill is not pretty good and now he's not all that healthy either. He's pitched a grand total of 143 innings in the majors and he just so happens to have an OPS+ identical to Matt Belisle (whom we're all thinking might be able to pull himself up to average).

    John Patterson is almost never healthy, which has been a major contributor in his being consistently overrated (he doesn't get to pitch enough to definitively prove the hype wrong).

    If Bergmann (currently boasting a career OPS+ of 84) gets 30 starts for the Nats this year, it will be a sign of the team's utter lack of major league pitching, not Bergmann's quality. I'd rather have Josh Fogg.

    If you want something to stifle the Mets and Phils, I suggest you look to the Braves, though I doubt there's a force on the planet that's going to keep the Mets below 90 wins.
    Last edited by M2; 03-13-2008 at 04:42 PM.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

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  15. #14
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Bowden -- he could build two completely different decent starting lineups before he could assemble a single mediocre starting rotation.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  16. #15
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Compare and contrast...

    Last year, the Nationals gave up the fifth-most homeruns in MLB while being in the stadium that takes away the most homeruns. It's almost unfathomable. The pitching staff was also a leader in categories such as blown saves, worst save percentage, worst K/BB ratio, worst WHIP, etc.

    The Nationals pitching staff is just horrible, and a large portion of any of its limited success is due to RFK Stadium and a lucky BABIP.

    As for the offensive squad, they produced the fewest runs in baseball last year. It's a Jim Bowden-made team if there has ever been one.

    Maybe dougdirt could say more, but my impression of Bowden's drafts in Washington are that they are too heavy on position players (particularly outfielders), although there have been some good picks, and that the pitchers have had mixed results with most of them leaning toward being busts or projecting to have little impact in the big leagues.


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