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Thread: Liking Dusty more every day...

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    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
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    Liking Dusty more every day...

    Haven't played a game yet, but I'm sensing good things...

    Reason #1: He communicates with the press. In a real sense. Not just towing the GM's tight-lipped line. Says what and who he likes.

    Reason #2: He called Griffey and Dunn in the first day and made clear that they need to practice like rookies, not vets--because the rookies will copy them. Smart move. No other manager has had the guts to do that.

    Reason #3: He's pushing for Cueto and Volquez for the rotation. Other managers would cave to Krivsky, who wants the pitchers to have won at least 200 minor league games before they pitch in the majors. Looking back, I think keeping Homer down so long may have cooked up his brain. Thinking that the powers that be are too conservative for a long time can create an attitude.

    How are you guys on Dusty?
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

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    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post

    How are you guys on Dusty?
    Pretty much the same as I was when he was hired. Seems like he's good at communicating with the players but is clueless about putting together a batting order that maximizes run scoring.

    How he'll handle the pitching staff remains to be seen.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    I like the way he handles the press, communicates with players, and discusses his through processes.

    I dislike that he seems to make his strategic decisions based on assumptions and biases rooted deeply in his personal experience as a player rather than meshing that experience with an objective analysis of what actually works. This leads to statements that are often at odds with each other -- such as a desire for his top of the order guys to score runs, and then focusing on speed and bat control over an ability to get on base, even the though latter is much more influential on run scoring.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-18-2008 at 02:39 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Reason #1: He communicates with the press. In a real sense. Not just towing the GM's tight-lipped line. Says what and who he likes.
    I'm with you on this. He's a charismatic manager in a chummy, old-school way, and I've always had a soft spot for those kind of guys--even if I sometimes disagree with their decisions.

    Reason #2: He called Griffey and Dunn in the first day and made clear that they need to practice like rookies, not vets--because the rookies will copy them. Smart move. No other manager has had the guts to do that.
    I didn't hear about that... doesn't sound like a bad idea, of course, but do we have evidence that other managers did not do this?

    Reason #3: He's pushing for Cueto and Volquez for the rotation. Other managers would cave to Krivsky, who wants the pitchers to have won at least 200 minor league games before they pitch in the majors. Looking back, I think keeping Homer down so long may have cooked up his brain. Thinking that the powers that be are too conservative for a long time can create an attitude.
    His enthusiasm for those two is refreshing, but I'm not sure that Krivsky would ever have "held down" the two best performing pitchers in Spring Training. The jury is out for me on Dusty's handling of pitchers until we see how he monitors pitch counts--especially for Cueto. Here's hoping he's learned something from all the Prior/Wood critiques rather than simply turning a deaf ear to the "new school." If he does show more restraint in this area, I'll like him more right away.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    So, you think Homer Bailey's problem is he spent too much time in the minor leagues? Wow. I've gotta say, that's the first time I've heard that one. This is a guy who has pitched all of about 120 innings above Single-A before he was called up. He clearly should have spent more time in AAA last season. It's not like he dominated AAA hitters. The 49 hits allowed in 67.1 innings was nice, but the 4.28 BB/9 showed he was clearly not ready to pitch effectively in the major leagues. Krivsky was handling him just fine until he caved in to the screams from the fans (and possibly Bob C.) to call Homer up.

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    So, you think Homer Bailey's problem is he spent too much time in the minor leagues? Wow. I've gotta say, that's the first time I've heard that one. This is a guy who has pitched all of about 120 innings above Single-A before he was called up. He clearly should have spent more time in AAA last season. It's not like he dominated AAA hitters. The 49 hits allowed in 67.1 innings was nice, but the 4.28 BB/9 showed he was clearly not ready to pitch effectively in the major leagues. Krivsky was handling him just fine until he caved in to the screams from the fans (and possibly Bob C.) to call Homer up.
    Even though I was one of those screamers, I have to agree with you on this. I think it is pretty clear that Homer's development has been rushed by his early call-up. The question now is whether he has the wherewithal to correct himself back at AAA.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    This leads to statements that are often at odds with each other
    I've found it kinda odd that he'll make a point to note how good it is that one of his pitchers didn't walk anybody, yet comes across in other quotes as seemingly displeased with walks from his hitters. So are walks good or bad, Dusty?

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    So, you think Homer Bailey's problem is he spent too much time in the minor leagues? Wow. I've gotta say, that's the first time I've heard that one. This is a guy who has pitched all of about 120 innings above Single-A before he was called up. He clearly should have spent more time in AAA last season. It's not like he dominated AAA hitters. The 49 hits allowed in 67.1 innings was nice, but the 4.28 BB/9 showed he was clearly not ready to pitch effectively in the major leagues. Krivsky was handling him just fine until he caved in to the screams from the fans (and possibly Bob C.) to call Homer up.
    Except when he was called up it was a sub 4.00 walk rate and 39 hits in 58.1 innings in AAA (1.07 WHIP). Could he have used more time in AAA, sure, but he sure was doing a decent job until injuries kicked in.

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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Except when he was called up it was a sub 4.00 walk rate and 39 hits in 58.1 innings in AAA (1.07 WHIP). Could he have used more time in AAA, sure, but he sure was doing a decent job until injuries kicked in.
    But he wasn't dominating hitters. His K rate was down and IIRC he wasn't going very deep into games.

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    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    I've found it kinda odd that he'll make a point to note how good it is that one of his pitchers didn't walk anybody, yet comes across in other quotes as seemingly displeased with walks from his hitters. So are walks good or bad, Dusty?
    I've thought the exact same thing. Managers and coaches - not just Dusty - unanimously HATE to see their pitchers walk guys, so why isn't it considered more of a positive when their own batters draw a walk?
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    i remember Dusty being asked about Shawn Estes after a bad start in Chicago and saying something like this:

    "Yeah, walks kill. If most pitchers could just half their walks they'd be dominating."
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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    I just heard conversations with Howie Kendrick on XM. His approach to hitting is about working the count to get into a situation where he gets a pitch he can hit, not to 'just get on base' or draw a walk. Theory being that a ball in play means anything can happen. Hit, error, sac fly, etc depending on the situation.

    I think sometimes a pitching giving a walk is viewed as not getting an out from the hitter, where as a hitter drawing a walk is viewed as not getting a hit.

    I know I'll be yelled at soundly, but I see some merit in that philosophy.

    I do not mean to say I want to see our hitters swinging at balls not in the zone, or striking out more often, but SOME aggression would be nice.

    That said, I still understand how special a player Dunn is, and I hope Dusty doesn't screw his approach up too much.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    I've thought the exact same thing. Managers and coaches - not just Dusty - unanimously HATE to see their pitchers walk guys, so why isn't it considered more of a positive when their own batters draw a walk?
    The really simple explanation is that outcomes are judged against expectations -- how does this thing compare to the thing I wanted to have happen?

    If the goal of the pitcher is to get the guy out, then anything short of that is a failure.

    If the goal of the hitter is to get a hit, then anything short of that is a failure.

    Dusty views the job of the hitter as putting the ball in play (he has said as much). To Dusty, any ball in play has a chance to be a hit, or to advance base runners. If the batted ball is turned in to an out, that's a credit to the fielders, not something to be held against the batter. A walk represents a lost opportunity to do something better. This is also why strikeouts are considered so bad. They are the ultimate failure of the objective of the hitter.

    He does not see the job of the hitter as not making an out (ie. reach base). Thus while a walk certainly better than an out, it is, generically speaking, a worse outcome than putting the ball play in play. And because it is a distinct failure for the pitcher and only a moderate success for the hitter, walks become things that are the fault of pitchers, not to the credit of hitters. The hitter is merely benefiting from the failure of the pitcher to do his job. Working the count just increases the chances that you won't put the ball in play at all.

    To me, this philosophy errs in treating all batted balls as equals and all batted balls as better than balls not put in to play. Sure, a weakly hit ball might become a hit or advance a runner, but not with the regularity that such a philosophy assumes. It simply doesn't give enough weight to the value of getting another chance to get a good pitch to drive and the possibility of getting on base for free.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-18-2008 at 03:20 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    Surprisingly, I agree- so far I haven't minded Dusty at all. He has been very accomodating to the fans throught the media, and more importantly, I think SO FAR he has dispelled his reputation of favoring undeserving vets over rookies:

    -He has supported Joey Votto through his strugglesand is still giving him serious consideration for the starting job despite Hatte's dominance in ST.

    -He's all but penciled rookie hurlers Cueto and Volquez into the rotation ahead of veterans and one time shoo-ins Belisle, Fogg, and Affeldt.

    -Finally, while many on the board are crying foul over the Corey Patterson signing, I am taking the unpopular opinion of embracing it. I really think that CP could finally put it all together, or at least be an improvement to Fropper. Arguably, Jay Bruce illustrated this spring that he isn't quite ready to be a full-time starter in the major leagues, and I am fine with him spending the first month or two of this season in AAA. I do think if Bruce would have raked in ST, Dusty wouldn't object to him starting in CF on Opening Day, but the fact of the matter is, he didn't.

    This could very easily be one of those statements I end up regretting big time later, but...It's still very early in his tenure, but for right now, I'm not minding Dusty at all.
    Last edited by Benihana; 03-18-2008 at 03:58 PM.
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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Liking Dusty more every day...

    I don't think Dusty disdains the walk and wants guys to hit at all cost. I think he simply wants his best hitters to take advantage of hittable pitches when they get them. Nobody wants players to swing at pitches that they can't hit. I call that"giving away an at bat." The thing is, just because they didn't swing at the pitch doesn't mean it isn't a pitch that they couldn't have driven. It is pretty obvious to me that plenty of hitters could kick themselves for not swinging at very hittable pitches when they get them. It's obvious from the body language after letting it pass. On average, hitters might get one (two at most) very hittable pitches in any at bat. You have to recognize them when you get them. Barry Bonds has always been a master at this.

    Just because they didn't swing, doesn't mean the ball was not a pitch that they couldn't have driven. Taking hittable strikes and getting in pitchers counts causes hitters to swing at pitches that they can't hit. Pitchers pitches. I love to see a professional at bat as much as the next guy, but there are guys that can hit when behind and there are guys that look absolutely clueless. That should play into the approach as well as the way that a particular pitcher is pitching on any given day.
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