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View Poll Results: Did Dusty make the right decision taking Adam Dunn out of the game early?

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Thread: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

  1. #16
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    There is a time for double switches and that was not it. In a game in which you were down 3 runs you can't take out your main power hitter that can turn around a game with one swing of the bat. It comes down to is it more important to get a 2nd innning out of Burton than lose 2 Dunn at bats. In a game in which you are down you need the 2 Dunn ABs.

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  3. #17
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    I understand what you guys are saying, but I protect my pitching staff at all costs. The team had to get more than 1 inning from the next pitcher IMO and when the 9 spot in the order came up there were guys on base and a PH surely would have been used. If I have to choose between burning up the bullpen before Memorial Day or a good hitter missing a plate appearance here and there during a long season, I let the guys miss the plate appearance. The 3rd choice would be to let the new pitcher bat with runners on and hope for the best, but we would be second guessing that one too.

    IMO the real failings were falling behind in the first place, squandering chances in other situations prior to that and possibly that the Reds don't have a RH power bat to use in that situation and had to settle for Freel as the choice to replace the offensive source. I think the Freel/Hopper redundancy hit home last night. Both came-up with men on base and neither was the best choice in that situation.

    I don't really like taking Dunn out there, but there were no other choices to double switch with that I liked any better. I also didn't like the idea of putting the pitcher in and pinch hitting after one inning, and I didn't like the idea letting the pitcher hit. There was no way to make a good decision in this game. That happens when the team falls behind early.
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  4. #18
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I understand what you guys are saying, but I protect my pitching staff at all costs. The team had to get more than 1 inning from the next pitcher IMO and when the 9 spot in the order came up there were guys on base and a PH surely would have been used. If I have to choose between burning up the bullpen before Memorial Day or a good hitter missing a plate appearance here and there during a long season, I let the guys miss the plate appearance. The 3rd choice would be to let the new pitcher bat with runners on and hope for the best, but we would be second guessing that one too.

    IMO the real failings were falling behind in the first place, squandering chances in other situations prior to that and possibly that the Reds don't have a RH power bat to use in that situation and had to settle for Freel as the choice to replace the offensive source. I think the Freel/Hopper redundancy hit home last night. Both came-up with men on base and neither was the best choice in that situation.

    I don't really like taking Dunn out there, but there were no other choices to double switch with that I liked any better. I also didn't like the idea of putting the pitcher in and pinch hitting after one inning, and I didn't like the idea letting the pitcher hit. There was no way to make a good decision in this game. That happens when the team falls behind early.
    Agreed. Dusty's hand was forced and he had to play the one he was dealt.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    The big issue is getting Belisle in Fogg's spot so as not to have to expose this bullpen over 4-5 innings consistently. This is still a monumentally awful bullpen.

  6. #20
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    I didn't like the move. The offense was trying furiously all night to catch up, and he takes our most dangerous hitter out of the lineup in the 6th inning when we're only down three. I understand his line of thinking behind the move, but I disagree with it. Shades of Bob Boone in 2003.

  7. #21
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Once you've doubled switched Dunn out of the game, you're basicily throwing in the towel.
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by sonny View Post
    Agreed. Dusty's hand was forced and he had to play the one he was dealt.
    Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

    Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

    If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

    Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.

    I assume, with Burton for two, Dusty was going for the win. Why use one of your best relievers for two innings unless you think it is a winnable game?

    Yet, if Dusty was going for the win, he needs to keep Dunn out there.

    There were better ways to handle this particular situation.

  9. #23
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    The pitchers slot was due up 4th that inning. There was no guarantee that it would come to bat. He pulled Dunn for the chance that the pitcher's slot would bat in the 6th. And even though that occured, Dusty was left with a sub-optimal matchup (Freel vs righthander) instead of Hatteberg with arguably the game on the line.

    I don't see any way of arguing that the move did anything but reduce the Reds chances of winning last night. If he needed 2 innings out of a reliever so badly, why didn't he use Affeldt for one more?

  10. #24
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    The pitchers slot was due up 4th that inning. There was no guarantee that it would come to bat. He pulled Dunn for the chance that the pitcher's slot would bat in the 6th. And even though that occured, Dusty was left with a sub-optimal matchup (Freel vs righthander) instead of Hatteberg with arguably the game on the line.

    I don't see any way of arguing that the move did anything but reduce the Reds chances of winning last night. If he needed 2 innings out of a reliever so badly, why didn't he use Affeldt for one more?
    I (theoretically) agree with that argument. Affeldt was shaky though. I don't think his first choice was to change pitchers, but it looked like Affeldt was about to get rocked, otherwise he would have probably left him in.
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  11. #25
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

    Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

    If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

    Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.

    I assume, with Burton for two, Dusty was going for the win. Why use one of your best relievers for two innings unless you think it is a winnable game?

    Yet, if Dusty was going for the win, he needs to keep Dunn out there.

    There were better ways to handle this particular situation.
    I think there is logic to this argument regarding Weathers and Burton switching around. Unfortunately, it appears that Weathers is the 8th inning guy and won't be used earlier very often. Dusty isn't the only Manager who manages like that.

    I do think the pecking order in the bullpen may have changed. I think Baker views Burton as the guy who pitches multiple innings when the team is behind. I get the impression that in close games when trying to protect a lead right now, we'll see Lincoln, Mercker and Weathers in front of Cordero with a dash of Coffey thrown in.

    Burton's two good innings last night we're a big positive coming out of that train wreck IMO. This team needs some one to prove reliable in the 7th and 8th. IMO that is this team's biggest weakness. Hopefully he'll get going and move back to late inning guy soon.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  12. #26
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Once you've doubled switched Dunn out of the game, you're basicily throwing in the towel.
    Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.

    It was another bad move by Baker. If you double-switch there, you're still going to have to pinch hit later anyway for the Pitcher, who's now slotted in the five hole due to the double-switch. The slot was guaranteed to come up with that many Outs left in the game.

    That was just Dusty Baker doing what Dusty Baker does.
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  13. #27
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.

    It was another bad move by Baker. If you double-switch there, you're still going to have to pinch hit later anyway for the Pitcher, who's now slotted in the five hole due to the double-switch. The slot was guaranteed to come up with that many Outs left in the game.

    That was just Dusty Baker doing what Dusty Baker does.
    That's true, but by the time that slot rolled around a change would have been necessary anyway. It prevents making two changes and those are the types of moves that conserve a pen over 162 games. I think KC's argument about switching Weathers for an inning and letting Burton pitch the 7th and 8th is the best I've heard, but Dusty was "saving" Weathers for the 8th in the event there was a lead to protect. I don't agree with that, but I think most of the managers in baseball manage like that.

    Dusty could have done as KC suggests and it would have been really smart IMO, but I don't expect any manager to be really smart these days. I just don't want real stupid. In this situation, I think Dusty chose one of three really bad choices (Double Switch with the guy due up 9th which was Dunn in this case, only go 1 inning with Burton, let the pitcher hit) that most managers would limit themselves to. I don't consider that really stupid.

    Now hitting Castro instead of Hatte was really stupid...
    Last edited by mth123; 04-05-2008 at 10:24 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #28
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

    Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

    If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

    Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.
    Great point. Double-switching Votto with Hatteberg (or vice versa, when Hatte starts) would seem to be a natural move. I still wonder if maybe Dunn was sick or something, because double-switching your best power hitter out of the game after the fifth inning just doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.
    I thought that Castro was the wrong choice to pinch-hit to lead off the inning. (No, not because he "is" Juan Castro!) I thought it should have been Hatteberg for two reasons:

    1) Hatteberg is the far superior offensive player. It was late in the game, and the Reds likely would not have another chance to use the "best bullet" on the bench.

    2) With the pitcher's spot in the #5 hole leading off, it means that Votto in the #7 hole would definitely bat, which means that Dusty could double-switch Hatteberg in and Votto out. This would have the effect of pushing the pitcher's position two spots back, thus delaying a possible Castro at-bat as the final pinch-hitter.
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  15. #29
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    That's true, but by the time that slot rolled around a change would have been necessary anyway. It prevents making two changes and those are the types of moves that conserve a pen over 162 games. I think KC's argument about switching Weathers for an inning and letting Burton pitch the 7th and 8th is the best I've heard, but Dusty was "saving" Weathers for the 8th in the event there was a lead to protect. I don't agree with that, but I think most of the managers in baseball manage like that.

    Dusty could have done as KC suggests and that and it would have been really smart IMO, but I don't expect any manager to be really smart these days. I just don't want real stupid. In this situation, I think Dusty chose one of three really bad choices (Double Switch with the guy due up 9th which was Dunn in this case, only go 1 inning with Burton, let the pitcher hit) that most managers would limit themselves to. I don't consider that really stupid.

    Now hitting Castro instead of Hatte was really stupid...
    Actually, Baker pretty much couldn't use Hatteberg as a pinch hitter after Valentin pulled up lame. That aside...

    While I see your point, I also don't think what your league average Manager could be expected to do insulates Baker. Just because your league average Manager might not understand how to properly leverage a bullpen, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect our Manager to be able to do it.

    Secondly, part of Baker's plan was to get 2 Innings out of a guy (Burton) who'd never recorded six consecutive MLB Outs in a game prior to yesterday. So instead of using Weathers or even Lincoln (who threw all of six pitches the day before) for that one Inning, Baker actually pushed a high-leverage pen arm in an effort to "save" the bullpen while also guaranteeing that the most powerful bat on the team wouldn't see another PA.

    To me, that's all sorts of bad.
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  16. #30
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    Re: Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think there is logic to this argument regarding Weathers and Burton switching around. Unfortunately, it appears that Weathers is the 8th inning guy and won't be used earlier very often. Dusty isn't the only Manager who manages like that.

    I do think the pecking order in the bullpen may have changed. I think Baker views Burton as the guy who pitches multiple innings when the team is behind. I get the impression that in close games when trying to protect a lead right now, we'll see Lincoln, Mercker and Weathers in front of Cordero with a dash of Coffey thrown in.

    Burton's two good innings last night we're a big positive coming out of that train wreck IMO. This team needs some one to prove reliable in the 7th and 8th. IMO that is this team's biggest weakness. Hopefully he'll get going and move back to late inning guy soon.
    And that is where managers often fail when it comes to managing pitchers. The alleged benefit of having an "old school" manager with Baker's experience is that he is supposed to have an intuitive sense about when to make changes and to be able to adapt to situations that run counter to "the stats." But if he's locked into things like pulling mechanical double switches because he has to follow some mechanical pecking order, then why have him at all? Why not just have a chart in the dugout that lists all the situations in which each player should be used and just have a guy who can read the chart and make changes accordingly?

    It seems to me like alleged "old school" managers today are locked in to the idea of bullpen "roles" rather than looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each member of the team and making changes with those attributes in mind. It's hardly "old school," unless by "old school" you mean lazy or unwilling to adapt to the situation. As Kc91 said, I think that if Baker were paying attention to the situation rather than just going by the book, he would have brought in a 1 inning guy instead and waited until the next inning to pull the double switch with the long reliever and a player less likely to weaken the offense.
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