NBA Playoff thread

[JayBruce4HOF]

Paul Pierce's "true" talent ranking is probably somewhere closer to top-20, IMO.

[Roy Tucker]

I'd put Pierce somewhere between #11 and #20.

My first though was there are a lot of guys you could put at PF on that Celtics team and they'd have similar success. But I'm not so sure now. What set him apart was that he bought into the team defense concept of the Celtics and busted his butt to make it work. I hadn't seen that in him before. Yes, it was a team defense that shut down Kobe (Garnett and the Boston bigs had a whole lot to do with it), but that starts with a guy that can stay between Kobe and the basket with a hand in his face. And you can count on one hand the number of guys in the League that can do that. With the egos and money of the NBA, I'm not sure many guys would do all that.

I'm not a huge Paul Pierce fan as a pure basketball fan. He's not fluid or dynamic, clanks and thuds when he drives to the basket, flops too much, has a funny shot, and isn't what I have in mind if I'd design the perfect basketball player.

But he's a World Champion and the MVP of the Finals and that's saying a lot.

[M2]

Pierce scores a lot (inside and outside), handles the ball, passes well, rebounds and plays aggressive defense (a fairly new wrinkle for him, but he undeniably does it). Top 10? 11-20? Doesn't really matter. What counts is there's a player who can give the other team fits on a nightly basis. Not too many players can beat you in as many ways as Pierce can. He and Vince Carter have basically been the same guy since they entered the NBA in the same draft. Carter's more aesthetically pleasing to watch. I'd argue that Pierce is slightly more effective on the court.

[Scrap Irony]

And you can count on one hand the number of guys in the League that can do that

You mis-typed. It should read, "And you can count on one hand the number of guys in the League that would do that."

Talents such as the typical NBA Sll-Star eschew D in order to put up 20 a night. Therefore, this season (as before this season, Pierce routinely was among the worst in the league at D) and especially in the playoffs, Pierce proved he was among the five best all-around small forwards in the game.

The others:
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Caron Butler


Two others-- Ron Artest and Shawn Marion-- are close.

[Razor Shines]

Pierce is damn good. Possibly top ten.

Putting Steve Nash ahead of him is funny. And horribly incorrect.

Actually it's not. You and I are never, never, never, never going to come close to agreeing on this one. So I guess we should let it go. But Flight of the Conchords is awesome!

[improbus]

Actually it's not. You and I are never, never, never, never going to come close to agreeing on this one. So I guess we should let it go. But Flight of the Conchords is awesome!

Steve Nash is the Drew Bledsoe of the NBA. He does some things at a world class level, maybe better than anyone else. However, Nash might be the worst defensive PG in the league not named Sam Cassell. No player can be top 10 if they are that one sided.

My Top Ten (in no particular order):
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Chris Paul
Garnett
Amare
Dirk
Ginobili
Dwight Howard
Pierce

[guttle11]

I love Steve Nash, but winning the MVPs made people overrate him. Heck of a point guard in that system, but highly limited. I don't think he could run a slower game effectively, and he doesn't play defense. I think he's a clear #4 at the PG position right now.

I think people overrate Amare, too. I don't think he's a top ten player. Skill wise he may be, but put him on the floor in a game and he's not. Top 5 PF? Yeah. Top ten overal? Big stretch.

Pierce is a more talented scorer, very good defender, and stronger on the glass than Nash. And he can run the point in their system if asked. It's really not close, IMO.

My top ten (in no order)

Lebron
Kobe
Bosh
Duncan
Howard (limited but overpowering. Only going to get better, which is scary.)
Pierce
KG
Paul
Parker
Deron Williams

I'd probably have Yao in there if he had been healthy all season.

[improbus]

I think people overrate Amare, too. I don't think he's a top ten player. Skill wise he may be, but put him on the floor in a game and he's not. Top 5 PF? Yeah. Top ten overal? Big stretch.

Amare might have been the best, most unstoppable player in the league after the Shaq trade. Before Shaq, Amare had to defend guys like Duncan, Yao, and Garnett. Now, Shaq guards those guys (like the Spurs playing Oberto at Center and Duncan at PF), and frees up Amare. He averaged 29 ppg after Shaq and shot almost 60% from the field.

[guttle11]

So he lived up to the hype for two months? And he still can't defend whether he has to or not. I don't overlook weaknesses, even if the team attempts to hide them.

Not enough time. Still outside my top ten.

[improbus]

So he lived up to the hype for two months? And he still can't defend whether he has to or not. I don't overlook weaknesses, even if the team attempts to hide them.

Not enough time. Still outside my top ten.

Amare had been playing out of position. He is not a center, but Phoenix had no one who could guard the other teams bigs. I will admit that he's not a great man defender, but he is a force of nature and next year he will be a great weak side shot blocker, ala Josh Smith . Besides, anyone that scores that many points with that shooting percentage is ridiculously good.

[guttle11]

Besides, anyone that scores that many points with that shooting percentage is ridiculously good.

Not in a system designed to put a shot up every 7 seconds.

This is exactly why stats are not really that useful in basketball. Shooting a high percentage,raw points numbers, don't make you a great player.

I put Amare with Carmelo. All the tools to be truly great, but they are not at that level. They are not complete players. They both may well become that good, but they aren't now. They aren't diverse enough.

[guttle11]

To dive deeper into my point, I'll compare Amare to Dwight Howard. Both are very raw talents, and both should be forces in the paint for years to come.

The difference? Physicality. Dwight Howard can physically dominate the paint on both ends of the floor. When he goes for a rebound, he gets it. When he wants to score inside, duck and cover. He's a man. Amare is too dependent on space and a good feed. He doesn't create his own look, he simply finishes a play. He is a great finisher, though. Amare really has not shown the consistent ability to score with his back to the basket.

The same logic applies to Steve Nash. He needs space and a flowing game to control it. He's a great passer, but tighten the floor around him and he can't use that vision. He tends to waver in games like that. Paul, Parker, and Williams do not. They can dominate a wide open game, or a half-court slobberknocker.

[improbus]

To dive deeper into my point, I'll compare Amare to Dwight Howard. Both are very raw talents, and both should be forces in the paint for years to come.

The difference? Physicality. Dwight Howard can physically dominate the paint on both ends of the floor. When he goes for a rebound, he gets it. When he wants to score inside, duck and cover. He's a man. Amare is too dependent on space and a good feed. He doesn't create his own look, he simply finishes a play. He is a great finisher, though. Amare really has not shown the consistent ability to score with his back to the basket.

The same logic applies to Steve Nash. He needs space and a flowing game to control it. He's a great passer, but tighten the floor around him and he can't use that vision. He tends to waver in games like that. Paul, Parker, and Williams do not. They can dominate a wide open game, or a half-court slobberknocker.

I think you're both overestimating Dwight's Offensive game and underestimating Amare. The key word in you description of Dwight is "can". Dwight's offensive game is growing, but still very limited. He scores mostly on easy dunks over pathetic Eastern Conference centers (I'm talking about you Eddy Curry), or on putbacks and Offensive Rebounds. In a way, he is a stronger Marcus Camby, and that is fine. But, he has no post moves, no jump hooks ala Shaq, no jumper. Basically, he is really big and strong.

However, Amare has developed into a good 15 foot jump shooter. This allows him to fake the jumper, put the ball on the floor and go to the basket. He is a finished product on the Offensive end of the floor.

Three more points:
1) Dwight drifts in and out of games. He has the David Robinson, "I'm the gentle giant" attitude, which hurts him. He isn't willing to simply destroy his opponents. Maybe if Dwight played with a relentless PG like Nash, he would be more consistent...

2) Free Throw shooting: 2008: Amare 80%; Dwight 59%

3) When you stated that Amare needs the ball in the right spots, that really applies to almost every big man with a defined offensive game. Shaq needs the ball on the block; Duncan likes it about 8-10 feet out, either facing up or with his back to the basket; Dirk at the top of the key; etc... Bigs are completely dependent on their guards. Dwight doesn't have any post moves, so anywhere within the dunking radius is fine.

That may be what is stunting Dwight's growth offensively, that he plays with bad PG's...

[TeamSelig]

Amare is an AMAZING offensive player. He is very young still, and raw. He's never had to play defense. His team really isn't too worried about developing any defensive talent. He is more than capable of playing good d IMO. Quick, good hops, long, etc.

But he is one of the top scoring bigs in the league. Dude can drain threes now... he's really stretched his shot out. He routinely hits that mid-range jumper now.

[JayBruce4HOF]

There's no doubt whatsoever that Amare Stoudemire is a top-ten talent in the NBA. Conduct a league-wide fantasy draft and see how long he lasts.