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Thread: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

  1. #1
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    Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Here we are again. Locked in a time-trap that began immediately following the final out of the one-game playoff against the Mets 9 years ago.



    That was just a joke, sort of.

    I'm honestly not panicking quite yet, but I'd be lying if I didn't have a gut feeling that this trend will continue.

    My big fear right now is that the Reds have simply become synonomous with losing. My fear is that a losing culture has been widely developed, and that even the best of intentions from the FO may not do the trick.

    I believe in the "losing culture" stuff. I always have, in every sport. Do I think it the cycle can be broken? Of course. But once a team hits that level, it becomes significantly more difficult to buck the trend.

    Here's two (small) examples of how I define losing culutre:

    1. For the past two years, Bronson Arroyo has been pretty good for us, pitching for lousy teams. He has been asked to be the #1-2 starter, and he has peformed pretty well-- not top of rotation stuff by any means, but decent enough.

    Now, with our rotation looking much better with Cueto, Volquez, and the young guys on the farm, we really don't even need Arroyo to be what we were asking him to be the past two seasons. Now, if he was simply a serviceable #3-4 starter, that would be just fine.

    But now, all of sudden, he's pitching like total garbage. If this continues, in many ways, he will offset the good that Cueto brings to the table. Yes, you add a highly intruiging and talented starter, but one of your formerly decent starters is now horrid. Wheels spinning.

    2. Paul Bako has been one of our better hitters thus far. We all KNOW that it won't last, but still, for now, he was swinging a good bat. So, tonight, he gets two VERY big at bats late in the game, and he simply can't find a way to extend his hot streak in either case. 2 K's. Rally over.

    Neither of these things individually amount to a whole lot in the grand scheme, but when these types of things happen over and over and over again, it becomes very hard to break the cycle of losing.

    If everytime a young player starts to excel, another player declines, it becomes a wash of sorts.

    Now, no matter what, I do like the direction of the team right now. I like the fact that for the first time in years we have a really nice core of young players that are worth watching. If Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Bailey, Volquez, Roeinicke, etc. all develop into their ceiling, then the Reds will eventually be good and there will be too much talent for the even the losing culture to bring down.

    However, that's still a pretty big "if."

    And along the way, it sure would be nice to see the Reds win. And by win, I mean making a run at the post-season. Heck, it's been 9 years since we had a legit shot, I'd say we're due.

    I'm far from quitting on the year, but as a fan who connects and identifies with his team, I am already frustrated. I'm not thrilled with the 7-10, and while I could see us pulling out of this and getting on a hot streak, I could just as easily see us at 14-20, and then 21-30, and then 28-40, and then the season will be over.

    Let me put it this way....I don't think there's a whole bunch the FO can do in terms of improving the roster for this season. Getting Fogg out of there will be nice, and there are always some tweaks that might help, but ultimately, IMO, the pieces are there this season for the Reds to at least stay in contention.

    Michael Wilbon once said, "first you win, and then you get good."

    I think the Reds are at that point. It's time to start finding ways to win. It's time to break the cycle.

    On a more positive note......Go Cavs tomorrow and beyond! Make Stevenson, Arenas, and the Wiz eat their words!!!

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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    I am frustrated to, but I like to look at the bright side of things and I am confident BC will not tolerate losing, which is something we couldn't say about the previous owner. I just wonder how long it will take him to right the ship.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Pretty soon this negative synergy will effect Cueto and Volquez and that will be sad because it is unnecessary.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Pretty soon this negative synergy will effect Cueto and Volquez and that will be sad because it is unessary.
    By far my biggest fear.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin View Post
    By far my biggest fear.
    Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.

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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.
    They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.
    Totally agree. Take tomorrow for example:

    Fans are frustrated already, players are pressing already, many veterans are struggling, and there is a "here we go again" feeling.

    So, Cueto takes the mound tomorrow with more pressure than normal. It's like because the vets aren't getting it done, we have to see if the kid can pull us out of the rut.

    I think it is MUCH better for Cueto and the other youngsters if we were already winning a bit and they could kind of "slide" into their roles. Instead, everything they do gets magnified because desperation is slowly sinking in.

    I don't think that's good for them at all. Not one bit. I've seen it happen to MANY young Redskins players over the years-- players I truly believe would have had better careers had the atmosphere been better when they were developing. I think we have a few truly special talents in the system and I do not want to see anything derail them.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.
    I agree with this as well, but it sure would be made easier if some of the veterans were doing their jobs. Like I said, all we need Arroyo to do is be what he's been the past two seasons. Instead, he's totally imploding. Throw us a bone here baseball Gods!

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Don't look to Castellini for a winner.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin View Post
    I agree with this as well, but it sure would be made easier if some of the veterans were doing their jobs. Like I said, all we need Arroyo to do is be what he's been the past two seasons. Instead, he's totally imploding. Throw us a bone here baseball Gods!
    Of course it does. I'm not really worried about the nerves of Cueto, Volquez, Votto, or Bruce though. All 4 seem like guys who step up to the challenge.

    A gem by Cueto tomorrow could shift momentum for the Reds. A lot to ask of a kid, but certainly not impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  12. #11
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edskin View Post
    Totally agree. Take tomorrow for example:

    Fans are frustrated already, players are pressing already, many veterans are struggling, and there is a "here we go again" feeling.
    True, already spread to us and our game threads, just an example. Phillips already admitted he was trying to do too much, there are other examples but we don't need me to fill the board with clutter. "here we go again" becomes a self-fulfilling prohecy and mind set.

    So, Cueto takes the mound tomorrow with more pressure than normal. It's like because the vets aren't getting it done, we have to see if the kid can pull us out of the rut.
    He and the others could be in danger of trying to be too fine, trying too hard, maybe over throwing, change a little something etc.

    Volquez was having problems yesterday. The pitchers already know that they might not get run support so they might be trying to be too fine.

    I think it is MUCH better for Cueto and the other youngsters if we were already winning a bit and they could kind of "slide" into their roles.
    Yes during positive team synergy. Where they can focus and stay within themselves, pitch the way that brought them to this level and progress. Hopefully Cordero will mentor Volquez and Cueto through this period.


    I don't think that's good for them at all. Not one bit. I've seen it happen to MANY young Redskins players over the years-- players I truly believe would have had better careers had the atmosphere been better when they were developing. I think we have a few truly special talents in the system and I do not want to see anything derail them.
    That is the latent effects that I am afraid of. They are pressured, rushed, their performce suffers then they get labeled and one thing leads to another and they never reach their potential.

    You're saying it better than I am.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 04-19-2008 at 01:37 AM.

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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.
    It is imperative that they do inspite of management or the overall team makeup at this time. They have to overcome the barriers in front of them and stay the course without being effected by the negative events.

  14. #13
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    I wouldn't mind this so much if it wasn't the same hymn, different verse.

    It's like a scripted professional wrestling match. Either our starter goes out and gets killed in the first couple of innings (Fogg, Arroyo) or our starter pitches well and the team can't hit the ball if it was the size of a pumpkin. The result if 10 losses out of 17 games.

    Tonight, the Reds got 6 hits. Since there was a right hander on the mound that Patterson couldn't handle, Dusty was forced to play Hopper in center. Hopper seems to have lost his hitting eye and the result was predictible. Our main guys all bat left and there is seemingly no alternative. I watched most of the game, but listened to the radio for awhile when I got bored with ground outs to second base, and Marty and Jeff both said the same thing. the lack of right-handed hitting on this team is ridiculous. If you have your left fielder and right fielder--your main power guys--batting left, why do you go out and get a CF who also bats left? If the future is Votto, a lefty, at first, why do you pick up Hatteberg's option, who is also a left handed batter? Outside of Griffey and Dunn (and maybe Phillips and Votto), the lineup is punchless. And yet you stand pat on offense in order to stock up pitching to go along with your ace (Harang) who seems very prone to the long ball these days, and Arroyo, who simply isn't pitching well and giving up a lot of, you guessed it, home runs. Hmmm.

    The culture of losing is one of those psychological things that breeds upon itself. Pittsburgh hasn't won in eons and we are right behind them. Ten yars of losing breeds more losing and we are at eight.

    Gang, this is a very poorly constructed team. The individuals all seem to have talent , but they don't mesh together well. Sad to say, but it might take a few more years (more than 4) to straighten it out. BTW, Jay Bruce is a lefty, too. Scary.

    And yet, we sit only 7-10. We hired a big name manager and then didn't give him the tools to massage this team into a winner. It will come. I hope. Someday.
    Last edited by WVRedsFan; 04-19-2008 at 01:23 AM.
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    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    I wouldn't mind this so much if it wasn't the same hymn, different verse.

    It's like a scripted professional wrestling match. Either our starter goes out and gets killed in the first couple of innings (Fogg, Arroyo) or our starter pitches well and the team can't hit the ball if it was the size of a pumpkin. The result if 10 losses out of 17 games.

    Tonight, the Reds got 6 hits. Since there was a lefty on the mound, Dusty was forced to play Hopper in center. Hopper seems to have lost his hitting eye and the result was predictible. Our main guys all bat left and there is seemingly no alternative. I watched most of the game, but listened to the radio for awhile when I got bored with ground outs to second base, and Marty and Jeff both said the same thing. the lack of right-handed hitting on this team is ridiculous. If you have your left fielder and right fielder--your main power guys--batting left, why do you go out and get a CF who also bats left? If the future is Votto, a lefty, at first, why do you pick up Hatteberg's option, who is also a left handed batter? Outside of Griffey and Dunn (and maybe Phillips and Votto), the lineup is punchless. And yet you stand pat on offense in order to stock up pitching to go along with your ace (Harang) who seems very prone to the long ball these days, and Arroyo, who simply isn't pitching well and giving up a lot of, you guessed it, home runs. Hmmm.

    The culture of losing is one of those psychological things that breeds upon itself. Pittsburgh hasn't won in eons and we are right behind them. Ten yars of losing breeds more losing and we are at eight.

    Gang, this is a very poorly constructed team. The individuals all seem to have talent , but they don't mesh together well. Sad to say, but it might take a few more years (more than 4) to straighten it out. BTW, Jay Bruce is a lefty, too. Scary.

    And yet, we sit only 7-10. We hired a big name manager and then didn't give him the tools to massage this team into a winner. It will come. I hope. Someday.
    Sheets is a righty, WV.
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    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Oh, Those Silly Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    Sheets is a righty, WV.
    Too late. I fixed it. Patterson can't hit Sheets, but supposedly Hopper could. Small sample size strikes again.

    My point is the same. The offense needs an overhaul. I think you would agree.
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