EE or BP? Who's the better hitter?

[TRF]

Perhaps the question should be who's the better offensive player? I don't want to ignore BP's SB ability.

IMO it's still EE. Better OBP = fewer outs. EE was the MAN with runners in scoring position.

runner on 2B
BP .196 BA, .275 OBP, .391 SLG 46 AB's
EE .348 BA, .444 OBP, .543 SLG 46 AB's

runner on 3B
BP .333 BA, .444 OBP, .476 SLG 21 AB's
EE .333 BA, .400 OBP, .417 SLG 12 AB's

runners at 1st and 3rd
BP .471 BA, .450 OBP, .706 SLG 17 AB's (these are eyepopping numbers, but BP's OBP is actually lower than his BA here. Still mind boggling good.
BP .500 BA, .571 OBP, .722 SLG 18 AB's

Bases Loaded
BP .263 BA, .300 OBP, .579 SLG 19 AB's
BP .471 BA, .550 OBP, .647 SLG 17 AB's

It seems to me that Phillips has a little power edge, but one i think this year will be closer to even, and EE has the better OBP, across the board. BTW, I didn't include numbers for 2nd and third as EE only had 4 AB's. BP had this line in 14 AB's .286 BA, .333 OBP, .500 SLG. And I won't forget his 32 SB's to EE's 8 either. Still BP makes a lot of outs. in 150 fewer AB's, EE walked 6 more times than Phillips. I think it's pretty close, but I give the edge as a hitter to EE, with props to BP and a speed adjusted SLG that takes him over .500 I have BP's speed adjusted OBP at .320, and his speed adjusted SLG at .533 which is an Speed Adjusted OPS of .853. BP's speed is a big boost, and offsets his lower OBP because he DOES have some real power. Edwin's Speed Adjusted OBP is .354. his one CS cost him .002 points of OBP. His 8 SB's increases his SA SLG to .454 giving him a SAOPS of .808. That is almost 50 points lower than BP.

I guess I just favor the OBP more than the SLG. So it's probably subjective to the individual, and in certain situations a coinflip as to who is the better hitter.

[Kc61]

EE's numbers, which aren't that good, are inflated because he had a hot August and September, months after the Reds were out of the race. His 2007 was very poor before that. And his 42 extra base hits for the entire season (over 500 at bats) and his .804 OPS against lefties are of deep concern for a supposed right handed power hitter playing a power position.

Phillips' problem is that he is OBP challenged, which in some folks' eyes is a horrible flaw. But as a second baseman, he is very much a plus offensive player due to his power and speed. And he mashes left handed pitching (.984 OPS), which is a big plus.

They are both too young to draw ultimate conclusions. But right now, it isn't even close. And I don't remember much talk about sending Phillips to AAA last year.

[camisadelgolf]

Which one's a better hitter? Well, I'd say it's almost definitely Encarnacion. However, when compared to the rest of the players at their respective positions, I'd say that Brandon Phillips is a slightly better hitter.

[TRF]

They are both too young to draw ultimate conclusions. But right now, it isn't even close. And I don't remember much talk about sending Phillips to AAA last year.

That had more to being mishandled by Narron than anything he did at the plate.

[Reds1]

Phillips more consistant, more power, more speed - at least at this point.

[Kc61]

That had more to being mishandled by Narron than anything he did at the plate.

So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

[RedsManRick]

So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

.744 huh? And yet, when Brandon Phillips puts up a .737 OPS versus righties over 480 plate appearances (the 2/3 of the season that would get EE shipped out) nobody bats an eye -- they bat him cleanup instead. You can play the splits game all day.

BP barely outperformed EE over the course of last season, and likely didn't when you factor in both SB and GIDP.

EE OPS by month, 2007
APR .554
MAY .842
JUN .820
JUL .614
AUG .908
SEP .969

EE OPS vL/vR, 2007
vL: .790 (378)
vR: .804 (182)

BP OPS by month, 2007
APR .792
MAY .832
JUN .706
JUL .854
AUG .923
SEP .762

BP OPS vL/vR (PA), 2007
vL: .984 (222)
vR: .737 (480)

Given that EE is two years younger than BP, that BP has had about 500 more major league PA, that EE has shown more power throughout his minor league career (.167 ISO SLG) than Phillips (.144 ISO SLG), I'm going to go with EE moving forward. The speed issue barely moves the needle. And when it comes to being worried about splits, a massive platoon split is much more troubling to me than 2 really bad months.

Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order together (or at least it should be...).

[TRF]

So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

And what was his OPS in June, July, August and Sept.?

It certainly wasn't .744

[CTA513]

Encarnacion wasn't hitting a bunch of doubles and homeruns, but he was knocking in runs both pre and post All-Star break.

Encarnacion Pre All-Star: .270 AVG with 36 RBIs in 256 ABs
Encarnacion Post All-Star: .308 AVG with 40 RBIs in 246 ABs

Phillips Pre All-Star: .276 AVG with 47 RBIs in 352 ABs
Phillips Post All-Star: .302 AVG with 47 RBIs in 298 ABs



Encarnacion has also been a better hitter with RISP in the majors.

[Kc61]

.744 huh? And yet, when Brandon Phillips puts up a .737 OPS versus righties over 480 plate appearances (the 2/3 of the season that would get EE shipped out) nobody bats an eye -- they bat him cleanup instead. You can play the splits game all day.

BP barely outperformed EE over the course of last season, and likely didn't when you factor in both SB and GIDP.

EE OPS by month, 2007
APR .554
MAY .842
JUN .820
JUL .614
AUG .908
SEP .969
TOT .794

BP OPS by month, 2007
APR .792
MAY .832
JUN .706
JUL .854
AUG .923
SEP .762
TOT .816

Given that EE is two years younger than BP, that BP has had about 500 more major league PA, that EE has shown more power throughout his minor league career (.167 ISO SLG) than Phillips (.144 ISO SLG), I'm going to go with EE moving forward. The speed issue barely moves the needle.

Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order

together (or at least it should be...).

Phillips may have had a .734 for a time against righties, but that's only against righties. He killed lefty pitching all season and had a .984 OPS against lefties, which is omitted from your post.

EE's .744 (with 19 extra base hits) are totals for his performance for April through July. Against all pitching. Even with his late hot streak, his OPS against lefties was .804.

EE is younger and did have some good minor league season. True, but doesn't change anything.

[redsrule2500]

Did you mislabel EE as BP in the last 2 categories? Which one is which, the bottom I assume? Thanks

runners at 1st and 3rd
BP .471 BA, .450 OBP, .706 SLG 17 AB's (these are eyepopping numbers, but BP's OBP is actually lower than his BA here. Still mind boggling good.
BP .500 BA, .571 OBP, .722 SLG 18 AB's

Bases Loaded
BP .263 BA, .300 OBP, .579 SLG 19 AB's
BP .471 BA, .550 OBP, .647 SLG 17 AB's

[TRF]

Phillips may have had a .734 for a time against righties, but that's only against righties. He killed lefty pitching all season and had a .984 OPS against lefties, which is omitted from your post.

EE's .744 (with 19 extra base hits) are totals for his performance for April through July. Against all pitching. Even with his late hot streak, his OPS against lefties was .804.

EE is younger and did have some good minor league season. True, but doesn't change anything.

Post ASB:
Phillips .832 OPS
EE .848 OPS

[redsrule2500]

Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order together (or at least it should be...).

I agree. This is why everyone hated on Casey, he didn't "Bat like a 1Bman". I think it's a stupid, illogical arguement.

BP defense and baserunning is where he makes up for the lack of batting...he's the "complete package" player.

[Kc61]

Post ASB:
Phillips .832 OPS
EE .848 OPS

Right, as I said, once the race was over, and EE had served his minor league stint, he hit much better. But to say that he's a better hitter or offensive player than Phillips goes way too far.

And, of course, this spring EE is hitting like he did last April to July. So it's hard to get very excited about him.

And, of course, EE's OBP is nice -- personally, I'd sometimes bat him second -- but it's not high enough to justify a third baseman who fails to get extra base hits and doesn't hit lefties well.

So, hopefully, EE will make adjustments this year and show improvement. He certainly improved defensively last year, significantly. The Reds need him to hit, particularly against lefty pitching, because they only have one power bat that kills lefties, and that belongs to Phillips.

[cincrazy]

I don't even think it's close. Edwin may have the higher OBP, but give me Phillips' consistency day in and day out. You don't know what you're going to get from EdE in an given month. He could hit .400 and he could hit .120.