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Thread: $22.5 Million dollars

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  1. #1
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    $22.5 Million dollars

    *Mike Stanton, 3.5 mill owed this season after release

    *Juan Castro, $975,000 for '08, 1.1 mill in '09 (club option/$100,000 buyout)

    *Todd Coffey, $925,00 for '08...increase of $517,500 when extended on April 28 of last year.

    *Bronson Arroyo, 6.45 mill '08 (3.95 mill base + 2.5 mill signing bonus)
    9.5 mill '09, 11 mill '10, 11 mill '11 (club option/2mill buyout)

    *David Ross 2.5 mill '08, 3.5 mill '09 (club option/$375,00 buyout)

    *Scott Hatteberg, 1.85 mill '08

    *Ryan Freel, 3 mill '08, 4 mill '09

    *Corey Patterson, 3 mill '08

    *Josh Fogg, 1 mill ($400,000 guaranteed)


    '08 TOTAL: 22.6 mill

  2. #2
    Manliness Personified HumnHilghtFreel's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Effective use of an expanded payroll. Take notes, up and coming GM's!

  3. #3
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Hatteberg would be a great pinch hitter. Not as a platoon player.

  4. #4
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    I still think it's wayyyy too early to be upset about Arroyo.
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  5. #5
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I still think it's wayyyy too early to be upset about Arroyo.
    Maybe so, but you gotta believe that all these HRs will only turn into longer HRs when the weather heats up.

    I think the guy is a bad fit for the Reds' park.

  6. #6
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Maybe so, but you gotta believe that all these HRs will only turn into longer HRs when the weather heats up.

    I think the guy is a bad fit for the Reds' park.
    What the heck? If he does what he did in 2006 or even 2007 he is a decent starter, and worth having on the team. The pay might be a little high, but he will pitch a ton of good innings.
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  7. #7
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    What the heck? If he does what he did in 2006 or even 2007 he is a decent starter, and worth having on the team. The pay might be a little high, but he will pitch a ton of good innings.

    That's a big if. Those two years were among the best in his career. I hope you're right but I foresee him pitching like a 4th or 5th starter while paying him like an ace in 2009 and 2010 and that's not a recipe for success in a market like this.

    If I'm WK I don't give him this extension. I try to sign him for about 2 yrs/$15mill and if he decides to walk I take the draft pick compensation and say thanks for the 3 good years.

    At the very worst you can likely replace him with a Jose Silva type FA but hopefully you're smart and you can land a guy like Justin Germano.

  8. #8
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's a big if. Those two years were among the best in his career. I hope you're right but I foresee him pitching like a 4th or 5th starter while paying him like an ace in 2009 and 2010 and that's not a recipe for success in a market like this.

    If I'm WK I don't give him this extension. I try to sign him for about 2 yrs/$15mill and if he decides to walk I take the draft pick compensation and say thanks for the 3 good years.

    At the very worst you can likely replace him with a Jose Silva type FA but hopefully you're smart and you can land a guy like Justin Germano.
    Except, $11 Million per year is not paying him like an ace. Its the going rate for solid mid-rotation vets these days and that is what Arroyo is until he goes longer without being effective.
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  9. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's a big if. Those two years were among the best in his career. I hope you're right but I foresee him pitching like a 4th or 5th starter while paying him like an ace in 2009 and 2010 and that's not a recipe for success in a market like this.
    Not that my personal projection of Arroyo is any more prescient than yours, but based on what exactly?

    If I'm WK I don't give him this extension. I try to sign him for about 2 yrs/$15mill and if he decides to walk I take the draft pick compensation and say thanks for the 3 good years.

    At the very worst you can likely replace him with a Jose Silva type FA but hopefully you're smart and you can land a guy like Justin Germano.
    If a team has an equally capable, but cheaper starter on it's hands, why would they trade us him for Arroyo? And if you're going to FA, what kind of starter do you think you can get to replace him (who's actually going to be a FA) and at what cost?

    I would suggest that the $20M over two years we have committed to him in 2009 and 2010 is hardly "ace" money in today's market. It's mid-rotation starter money -- you know, exactly what Arroyo is and likely will continue to be over the next 2.5 years. That doesn't mean I think the extension was a great idea. We had a bargain and gave it away; I've argued the "trade Arroyo" side of this conversation before. But there's no need to artificially inflate the risk of a collapse of production or to suggest that we could definitely get a better return on that investment elsewhere without providing any reasonable scenarios in which that actually happens.

    This whole conversation reeks of grass-is-greener hand wringing over something that isn't really a problem. The money spent on Arroyo isn't the most efficient, but it's hardly "prohibitive". This team doesn't lack cash -- and hasn't lacked cash. It's lacked talent and it's lacked production. Trading away production for cash isn't a position I would quickly get behind. And suggesting that Arroyo is going to suddenly stop giving us production is chicken littlesque. If we're going to worry about a contract given to a 30 year old starter on the basis that he's likely to collapse in the near future, we should be probably dump Harang now too. What if HE collapses -- then we're in big trouble. Better flip him for a useful piece.

    The reality of the situation is that this conversation is borne out of a sub-par four start run to start the season. If he had allowed 3 ER less over the 4 starts, and carried a 4.23 ERA in to today, he wouldn't have been cited in the opening post of this thread and this entire conversation wouldn't be happening. That should suggest just a bit how exaggerated the "run before it blows" argument is.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 04-20-2008 at 09:11 PM.
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  10. #10
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I still think it's wayyyy too early to be upset about Arroyo.
    Upset? I guess it is a little early to be upset.

    But it doesn't change the fact that Wayne jumped the gun on the extension. I thought it was odd at the time to extend someone when they had 2 years left on their contract at such a cheap price. Too much risk with pitchers who are hitting their 30s with the track record of a middle of the road pitcher.

  11. #11
    6 months of heartbreak Bob Borkowski's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    I remember when it was announced that Freel had signed his current contract.

    His comment to the press was something to the effect that, "Man, I am being over-paid".

    Hey, I think he might have a point there.

  12. #12
    You're soaking in it! MartyFan's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Upset? I guess it is a little early to be upset.

    But it doesn't change the fact that Wayne jumped the gun on the extension. I thought it was odd at the time to extend someone when they had 2 years left on their contract at such a cheap price. Too much risk with pitchers who are hitting their 30s with the track record of a middle of the road pitcher.
    I thought it was a strange thing too but I actually thought it was motivated more by Mr. C than Special K at the time.

    I've always thought Arroyo was overrated, even when he signed the deal with the Red Sox he was overrated...the fact that we got one GREAT year and the potential of a couple good years from him is more than Wily Mo Pena ever offered to this team...and more than he will deliver to the Nationals or whever other team he plays for in the future. With that in mind even though Arroyo is overrated, I still view him as a plus over Wily Mo and anything else the team could have put in the rotation at the time...it isn't like he is blocking some CAN'T MISS prospect or keeping the team from signing a key top of the rotation FA pitcher.
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  13. #13
    Member Topcat's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    I still think it's wayyyy too early to be upset about Arroyo.
    I agree , Bronson will be a big key for us this season. fickle fans throw guys under the bus way to fast
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  14. #14
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    I was fine with Bronson's extension, so I have to remain consistant on that one

  15. #15
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: $22.5 Million dollars

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt700wlw View Post
    *Mike Stanton, 3.5 mill owed this season after release

    *Juan Castro, $975,000 for '08, 1.1 mill in '09 (club option/$100,000 buyout)

    *Todd Coffey, $925,00 for '08...increase of $517,500 when extended on April 28 of last year.

    *Bronson Arroyo, 6.45 mill '08 (3.95 mill base + 2.5 mill signing bonus)
    9.5 mill '09, 11 mill '10, 11 mill '11 (club option/2mill buyout)

    *David Ross 2.5 mill '08, 3.5 mill '09 (club option/$375,00 buyout)

    *Scott Hatteberg, 1.85 mill '08

    *Ryan Freel, 3 mill '08, 4 mill '09

    *Corey Patterson, 3 mill '08

    *Josh Fogg, 1 mill ($400,000 guaranteed)


    '08 TOTAL: 22.6 mill
    http://www.thelotd.com/lance/blog/2008/04/19/sunday

    Lance posted this on his blog on Sunday, and he's talking about money owed vs. dead weight and production.

    I think it is far too early to include Patterson, Freel, Hatteberg, Ross, Arroyo and Coffey on that list. All of those guys can and most probably will either stick with the team all year or be traded (along with their contracts) to other teams, for value. None of the guys mentioned above are in danger of being just dumped.

    Stanton, Castro and maybe Fogg are writeoffs from the bottom line. The Stanton money hurts the worst. I try to remember (when I am being kind to Wayne) that at the time Stanton was signed, the Reds had virtually no bullpen at all, and he was actually a positive acquisition. I think Fogg can possibly stick all year as a long reliever/spot starter. I think he'll get another chance or two before the Reds cut him loose.


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