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Thread: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

  1. #61
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    People think of hell in terms of fire and brimstone. The reality is that hell is likely more akin to having to moderate what would have been game threads during the last 5 game losing streak.......

    Reds fans seem to feed on their own and then turn on each other once the players' bones have been picked clean. I get it because of all of the losing and really a short supply of hope but I guess I don't get it. Maybe the BRM ruined baseball for this town in some respect.
    I would bet most of the posters "eating their own" on the Redszone were not alive during the BRM era.

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  3. #62
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    I would bet most of the posters "eating their own" on the Redszone were not alive during the BRM era.
    You might be right-I certainly don't keep score. That said, listening to sports radio around here, especially after games, I don't hear a lot of young fans calling in.....

    I wonder though, if the Bengals had a tradition of winning, would Reds fans be more tolerant? In other words, is a lot of the vitriol aimed at the Reds when they're down really just a general frustration of local sports fans boiling to the surface?

    I think fans with hope (i.e. can see light at the end of the tunnel) are much more tolerant.
    Last edited by jojo; 05-06-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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  4. #63
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    I remember people complaining about the 1995 Reds team on the internet.. basically "we made the playoffs but got blown away by the Braves, so what's the point?".. Poor Reggie Sanders was crucified.

    Now, a team like that seems like a dream season.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  5. #64
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I wonder though, if the Bengals had a tradition of winning, would Reds fans be more tolerant? In other words, is a lot of the vitriol aimed at the Reds when they're down really just a general frustration of local sports fans boiling to the surface?
    I'm not sure, but I've lived in Cincy, San Diego, the Detroit area, and now Minneapolis. Nowhere have I ever experienced anything similar to Cincy fans treatment of their players.... the good ones that is. In my experience, Cincy is unique in that respect. I still don't get it. But the venom towards players that aren't pretty much perfect is staggering. And I know there are a lot of folks who will never agree with this, but I do believe Marty is a factor in this. I don't think it's all on him. Maybe he's just playing up to the culture that's already there, but I know he doesn't help.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  6. #65
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I remember people complaining about the 1995 Reds team on the internet.. basically "we made the playoffs but got blown away by the Braves, so what's the point?".. Poor Reggie Sanders was crucified.

    Now, a team like that seems like a dream season.
    What's so intriguing about that team is that tremendous loss to the Braves, you forget that they beat the Dodgers in the first round of play-offs.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

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  7. #66
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Marty has morphed into a curmudgeon in recent years. Part of the job has to be for the announcers to "sell the product". Marty's "telling it like it is" has a decidedly negative tone and that certainly isn't the way to draw in new consumers.
    Last edited by flyer85; 05-06-2008 at 10:35 AM.
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  8. #67
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I'm not sure, but I've lived in Cincy, San Diego, the Detroit area, and now Minneapolis. Nowhere have I ever experienced anything similar to Cincy fans treatment of their players.... the good ones that is. In my experience, Cincy is unique in that respect. I still don't get it. But the venom towards players that aren't pretty much perfect is staggering. And I know there are a lot of folks who will never agree with this, but I do believe Marty is a factor in this. I don't think it's all on him. Maybe he's just playing up to the culture that's already there, but I know he doesn't help.
    To me, that's a far more interesting point (more interesting than Marty being evil anyway); that is Cincy's desire to crucify their sports teams, and especially the "star" tallents. It doesn't help that since the "heyday" of the 70's and early 80's the two main sports teams have generally sucked. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think we are as bad as Philly, but there's definatley an undercurrent of ire towards our teams.

    What's weird is I don't remember Mario Soto getting beat up and he was surrounded by horrific teams. Yet Eric Davis got murdered. Ken Anderson wasn't subjected to constant harranging (that I recall), nor was Collingsworth however in general the Bengals are hammered (mostly rightfully so). Dunner gets brutalized, yet Harrang is the golden boy.

    There seems to be a bizzare and always shifting standard. If you are percieved as being "hard working" you are mostly golden. If you are uber tallented but percieved as "lazy" forget it. You are toast. Cincy likes to pretend that it's the personifcation of "hard working midwestern" but that's generally a farce. It's almost a charicture that we've collectivley convinced ourselves is true.

    Maybe the Germanic herritage has something to do with it. I know that's a very broad brush there, but we Germans are some serrious self-loathing types.

    Maybe there's a bit of Pete Rose influence. Once you get burned by one beloved sports idol, people become generally more suspicius of the next ones.

    As far as the bolded section goes, you may be suprised, but I agree with you. He's definatley part of the equation. I just balk when people say he's the *only* reason (or the main one, at least).
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 05-06-2008 at 10:40 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  9. #68
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Actually, Anderson was beat up pretty good locally. In fact, in the SB year in 1981, the fans cheered when he got hurt in Week 1 against Seattle when the Bengals were down big. Schonert led a rather improbable comeback in that game, and then there was decided uproar over Gregg's decision to start Anderson over Schonert in Game 2 of that year, against the Jets I believe...

    A long way to say that Anderson took numerous shots as well...

  10. #69
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    I don't think Marty is the only reason. I think part of it is inherent in the culture. But I do think he exacerbates it.

    With Dunn and Harang, I think it's a couple of things. First, it's a matter of expectations. Dunn was supposed to be an annual MVP candidate along the lines of Albert Pujols. When he's not progressed to the level most expected him to (including myself here), he's been seen as a huge disappointment. I'm currently in town for a couple of weeks and went to the game last night for the first time in almost two years, and there are a lot of fans that just loathe Adam Dunn.

    With Harang, he never had those kind of expectations. He was fairly unknown without a lot of hype. He's been a pleasant surprise, which changes the perceptions. Plus, the whole "blue collar workhorse" that you alluded to comes into play here. That's definitely a factor in Cincy.

    Second, I think pitchers and hitters are different when it comes to the average fan. With pitchers, it's generally quite simple. Get the other team out without giving up a lot of runs and you're good. Get hit hard and give up runs and you're bad. There's not a lot of in between or it's not hard to understand how much a pitcher is contributing or sucking. I can't think of very many instances where there was a lot of polarization around a pitcher.

    With hitters it’s completely different. It’s not as black and white. Different folks look at completely different things in evaluating hitters. Some folks think certain hitters have different jobs (i.e. “Dunn’s job is to drive in runs, not take walks”). Others think most hitters have the same primary job (i.e. avoid outs). There’s not much consensus on what makes a hitter good versus bad, except in extreme cases. Every one knows Albert Pujols is a great hitter. There’s no two ways about it. Everyone knows Corey Patterson is a terrible hitter. But for a lot of players, it’s not that obvious. It depends on personal ideologies as far as hitting goes. And once you throw defense into the mix, it complicates it even further.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  11. #70
    Haunted by walks
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I don't think Marty is the only reason. I think part of it is inherent in the culture. But I do think he exacerbates it.

    With Dunn and Harang, I think it's a couple of things. First, it's a matter of expectations. Dunn was supposed to be an annual MVP candidate along the lines of Albert Pujols. When he's not progressed to the level most expected him to (including myself here), he's been seen as a huge disappointment. I'm currently in town for a couple of weeks and went to the game last night for the first time in almost two years, and there are a lot of fans that just loathe Adam Dunn.

    With Harang, he never had those kind of expectations. He was fairly unknown without a lot of hype. He's been a pleasant surprise, which changes the perceptions. Plus, the whole "blue collar workhorse" that you alluded to comes into play here. That's definitely a factor in Cincy.

    Second, I think pitchers and hitters are different when it comes to the average fan. With pitchers, it's generally quite simple. Get the other team out without giving up a lot of runs and you're good. Get hit hard and give up runs and you're bad. There's not a lot of in between or it's not hard to understand how much a pitcher is contributing or sucking. I can't think of very many instances where there was a lot of polarization around a pitcher.

    With hitters it’s completely different. It’s not as black and white. Different folks look at completely different things in evaluating hitters. Some folks think certain hitters have different jobs (i.e. “Dunn’s job is to drive in runs, not take walks”). Others think most hitters have the same primary job (i.e. avoid outs). There’s not much consensus on what makes a hitter good versus bad, except in extreme cases. Every one knows Albert Pujols is a great hitter. There’s no two ways about it. Everyone knows Corey Patterson is a terrible hitter. But for a lot of players, it’s not that obvious. It depends on personal ideologies as far as hitting goes. And once you throw defense into the mix, it complicates it even further.
    Yes, excellent post.

  12. #71
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    IWith Dunn and Harang, I think it's a couple of things. First, it's a matter of expectations.

    I think as soon as a player here gets a big contract, he's automatically a huge target. How many times have Jr, Dunn, and Larkin's salaries been brought up to point out that they aren't "pulling their load".
    Same was true with Eric Davis.

    If Dunn and Jr leave after this season, I'm guessing the gunsights will start to be pointed at Phillips, Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero. Instead of talk radio saying "How can they pay Dunn XXX when he doesn't hit with RISP?" They will say "How can they pay Cordero to only pitch 60 innings/year" or they'll rail on Phillips.

    When Bruce gets his big payday, people will rail on him, no matter how well he does. It's very predicatable.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  13. #72
    Joe Oliver love-child Blimpie's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    Marty has morphed into a curmudgeon in recent years. Part of the job has to be for the announcers to "sell the product". Marty's "telling it like it is" has a decidedly negative tone and that certainly isn't the way to draw in new consumers.
    Bingo.
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  14. #73
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    With Dunn and Harang, I think it's a couple of things. First, it's a matter of expectations. Dunn was supposed to be an annual MVP candidate along the lines of Albert Pujols. When he's not progressed to the level most expected him to (including myself here), he's been seen as a huge disappointment. I'm currently in town for a couple of weeks and went to the game last night for the first time in almost two years, and there are a lot of fans that just loathe Adam Dunn.

    With Harang, he never had those kind of expectations. He was fairly unknown without a lot of hype. He's been a pleasant surprise, which changes the perceptions. Plus, the whole "blue collar workhorse" that you alluded to comes into play here. That's definitely a factor in Cincy.

    There's a lot to be said for the expectations angle. Since the Reds have mostly stunk since 1977 we've become quite acustomed to the "next big thing" that is going to save the franchise. How often has the next tallented kid in AA been touted as a savior? Heck, just in the past few years Larson, Dunn, Kearns, Bailey and apparently now Cueto were going to single handled save the franchise. The fans, desperate for any sign of hope then latches onto the idea that if they "just call up player X" then all will be well. Obviously realality sets in and then fans are disapointed.

    Heck, fans are so programed to think this way that even relatively minor things like changing a guy's position in the batting order can be positioned as the way to get things back on track. If a pitcher is struggling its likely because he's "tippping his pitches" or some other bunk. We have one game where the offense explodes and it's "what they needed to build on" instead of just a fluke occurance.

    And I think Redread has a valid point about the contract amount and when said player suddenly becomes a villian. It happens in all cities, however, so that's not just a Cincy thing. But it does seem to offend the midwestern senses (whatever the heck those are) that grown men are paid $13,000,000 to "play a game". That said grown men are paid $3,000,000 to play a game is somehow acceptable is all rather silly.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  15. #74
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    I hate to say it but your average Cincinnati baseball fan is pretty ignorant. They are constantly looking for the next Pete Rose. The admire Pete Rose. They think Pete Rose should be in the HOF. What they fail to belive is the true character of one Pete Rose. Every year a player comes along who shows hustle, grit, determination and Cincinnati fans fall in love with them. I get tired of hearing how Ryan Freel is a good guy. Lets overlook that he had two arrests within a few months span a couple of years ago. Lets over look that the reason you see Freel diving for so many balls in the outfield is because he got a horriable read off the ball.

    Marty himself isn't the problem it is the casual fan's belief that everything Marty says is 100% correct. Look I have met Marty and you cant meet a nice guy. But all that aside Marty has made some asinine comments that too many people believe as truth. When Marty said that Norris Hopper is a better optoin than Dunn you saw a sea change in the way people thought of Dunn. Not to mention this season that Hopper can't hit the ball out of the infield. Marty loves to ride the guys with the talent but loves the guys who are good guys.

    Another problem with Reds fans is the Sean Casey factor. I don't care how good of a guy he is. I want to win baseball games. I am sick and tired of the fan favorites being held onto for too long. I would rather win with jerks than lose with "good guys". Im glad that Casey gave back to the community but so do Cordero and Harang and countless other reds players. Just because Casey became the poster child for giving back doesn't mean he is the only one.

    Lastly the media in this town is awful. It isn't manditory but I would love to see an explayer host a daily show. The local beat writers are so comfortable in their job that they have failed to adapt with the changing nature of baseball. Too much of a story is aready writen based upon the writers treatment by a particular athlete. I will always say this. Give me a team of 25 law abiding a-holes who wins and I will be just happy.

  16. #75
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Blogger on Marty's game-calling: That poor (expletive) has simply lost it

    Bummer...Marty wants to see a winner like the rest of us.


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