Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26

Thread: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,827

    Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    No, not entirely.

    He can't pitch the ball, he doesn't go up to bat and he doesn't take the field and he didn't get to handpick his personnel. And yes, his lineups cause more controversy than anything and you could certainly say that's hurt his cause. However, what I blame Dusty for is not getting the most out of his players, which is supposedly his specialty. I remember last year, the Cubs got off to a bad start. What did Sweet Lou do? He goes on a tirade and gets ejected and mysteriously, the Cubs played much better from that point on. Many Cubs were cited as saying that it was a turnaround point in the season for the team. Why is it that the Pirates are contending this year with less talent and playing the same schedule as the Reds? You could debate the talent I suppose, but a big part of it is the fact that those guys are relentless. They have tenacity and they look like they want to win each time they play.

    Good managers motivate and light a fire from underneath when the team needs it. Good managers get the most out of their players and don't allow for complacency. It's almost like Dusty knows he's got a big payday for 3 years, so he's sort of nonchalant about everything. I'm not suggesting he's happy about losing, but I do think he's not taking it very seriously and he seemingly has done nothing to try to improve the situation. This team has many flaws, but there are no stats/metrics or anything anyone can tell me that would have me believe that this team is giving 100% effort. 100% effort may not put this team in contention, but it would sure help them get closer to it. And for this, I blame the manager.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    3,202

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Yeah Dusty seems like a load of overrated.... Sure, he's a big name, but his only success was with a fantastic young group of guys in SF and one year with the huge market Chicago Cubs. His complete lack of baseball knowledge astounds me nearly every single day, as he is clearly a "players manager" - but doesn't seem to have any fantastic relationships with players working for him either!

    Dusty FOR THE LOSS. Worst manager choice ever, I would LOVE to have Pete back!
    Last edited by redsrule2500; 05-12-2008 at 02:58 PM.
    redsrule2500
    Go Reds!
    Baseball Bliss
    Im a normal guy blessed with the ability to hit a baseball. - Sean Casey

  4. #3
    Man Pills
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    24,914

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    No, not entirely.

    He can't pitch the ball, he doesn't go up to bat and he doesn't take the field and he didn't get to handpick his personnel. And yes, his lineups cause more controversy than anything and you could certainly say that's hurt his cause. However, what I blame Dusty for is not getting the most out of his players, which is supposedly his specialty. I remember last year, the Cubs got off to a bad start. What did Sweet Lou do? He goes on a tirade and gets ejected and mysteriously, the Cubs played much better from that point on. Many Cubs were cited as saying that it was a turnaround point in the season for the team. Why is it that the Pirates are contending this year with less talent and playing the same schedule as the Reds? You could debate the talent I suppose, but a big part of it is the fact that those guys are relentless. They have tenacity and they look like they want to win each time they play.

    Good managers motivate and light a fire from underneath when the team needs it. Good managers get the most out of their players and don't allow for complacency. It's almost like Dusty knows he's got a big payday for 3 years, so he's sort of nonchalant about everything. I'm not suggesting he's happy about losing, but I do think he's not taking it very seriously and he seemingly has done nothing to try to improve the situation. This team has many flaws, but there are no stats/metrics or anything anyone can tell me that would have me believe that this team is giving 100% effort. 100% effort may not put this team in contention, but it would sure help them get closer to it. And for this, I blame the manager.

    The Pirates are in no way contending this season. They are just not sucking as hard as they will.

  5. #4
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Commonwealth
    Posts
    8,350

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Dusty should be blamed yes.

    Krivsky should be blamed yes.

    Castellini should be blamed yes.

    There is tons and tons of blame to go around. I worry its not going to magically improve like BCast and co want it to. They seem to think they can tweak things a little and it'll get better.

    This team doesn't need a scalpel, it needs a chainsaw.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
    Cincinnati Bengals - None
    Chicago Bulls - 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,827

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    The Pirates are in no way contending this season. They are just not sucking as hard as they will.
    They're contending right now, which was my point. And they're doing it because of effort.

  7. #6
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Posts
    3,869

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    They're contending right now, which was my point. And they're doing it because of effort.
    So they're trying harder than the Reds? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
    "I can make all the stadiums rock."
    -Air Supply

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,827

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    So they're trying harder than the Reds? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
    Yep, I firmly believe it. Have you watched them play this season? I've seen probably 10-12 games. Those guys just don't give up. They play every inning with the same amount of intensity.

  9. #8
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,932

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    I don't think Dusty is the main culprit at all.

    Lou, Joe Torre, LaRussa.. none of them would have the team playing any better.

    It's just a bad team. Part of Dusty's puzzling lineup strategy was to get people back on track. One can question whether batting Jr second for a few games is a good way to get Jr hitting, but it's not as if he's making the lineups out randomly.

    Many people were predicting he was going to stick with Patterson no matter what. That was obviously not true. Freel and Harriston are getting a lot of time since Patterson is struggling. Dusty was also quick to pull the plug on Fogg. Dusty does a lot of things the board things should be done, he's just perhaps a bit more patient because he has to deal with real human beings and wants to give them a legitimate shot..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  10. #9
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    3,202

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    I would agree that nobody could do better except Pete took last years team and went over .500 with the team in the latter half!
    redsrule2500
    Go Reds!
    Baseball Bliss
    Im a normal guy blessed with the ability to hit a baseball. - Sean Casey

  11. #10
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,932

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    I would agree that nobody could do better except Pete took last years team and went over .500 with the team in the latter half!
    Dusty lost Josh Hamilton from that team, and was given Patterson as a replacement. Dusty also has an ineffective Arroyo this year and 3 youngsters in the rotation. Also many of the hitters are struggling.

    The blame finger needs to point squarely at Wayne for this bad start. This team was his baby. A manager can only do so much.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  12. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,299

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I don't think Dusty is the main culprit at all.

    Lou, Joe Torre, LaRussa.. none of them would have the team playing any better.

    It's just a bad team. Part of Dusty's puzzling lineup strategy was to get people back on track. One can question whether batting Jr second for a few games is a good way to get Jr hitting, but it's not as if he's making the lineups out randomly.

    Many people were predicting he was going to stick with Patterson no matter what. That was obviously not true. Freel and Harriston are getting a lot of time since Patterson is struggling. Dusty was also quick to pull the plug on Fogg. Dusty does a lot of things the board things should be done, he's just perhaps a bit more patient because he has to deal with real human beings and wants to give them a legitimate shot..
    Dusty's lineups seem driven often by the abundance of left handed hitters. When Freel leads off, Kepp hits seventh, because Dusty doesn't want to bunch his few right handed bats. Rather he wants to "spread" his few righty bats throughout the lineup.

    Say Dusty led off with Freel, Keppinger -- sounds more sensible than the current order. But then, of the next 6 hitters, four would be lefties and only two righties leading to "bunching up" of lefty bats. That seems to be Dusty's concern.

    He also seems tied to Griffey hitting third. He hit second only as a temporary emergency slump-busting measure.

    When you put all these factors together, you get the current batting orders.

    Not agreeing with this approach, simply saying I think it's Dusty's reasoning.

  13. #12
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I don't think Dusty is the main culprit at all.

    Lou, Joe Torre, LaRussa.. none of them would have the team playing any better.

    It's just a bad team. Part of Dusty's puzzling lineup strategy was to get people back on track.
    I don't think that it is about who is the main culprit.

    I think it is about what a manager can do to help his team and what a manager can do to try and not hurt his teams chances and not about what a manager cannot do.

    Dusty can place his hitting resources in a better position to produce a return.
    Dusty can bat Keppinger at leadoff
    Dusty can stop batting Phillips at cleanup
    Dusty can get off of the CF bats first, and the SS bats second.
    Dusty can bat Dunn second.
    Dusty can move Griffey out of being the fixture in the 3 slot and down to the
    4th or 5th spot.
    Dusty can stack Votto, Encarcion and Griffey behind Dunn
    Dusty can produced a better order against left handed pitchers who are snuffing out left handed hitters.
    Dusty can bat the higher OBP players in the top spots.
    Dusty can bat the higher SLG players behind the OBP players
    Dusty can hide Patterson on the bench until a late inning replacement is needed for defensive purposes.
    Dusty can hit Patterson 7th or 8th in the order
    Dusty can give players like Hatteberg and Valentin a bit more playing time to keep them sharp for when they are needed to pinch hit.
    Dusty can give Griffey more rest improving the right field defense, and maybe offenses output.
    Dusty can take some pressure off of the pitching by being wiser with his lineup contsructions and putting his players that he does have in a higher percentage chance to succeed.
    Dusty can have someone look up the stats for the players during the last seven games each day to see who in reality is producing with OBP, SLG etc in the here and now, and place those players where they can be used now, today, to get the most out of them while they are hitting well or producing, increasing the probability of scoring more runs and putting more pressure on the opposition.

    Dusty could have and can contribute less to the losses and maybe reduce the losses to some wins.

    Some things Baker can do, and those that Baker can and could've done is what he should be held accountable for. Baker has contributed to losses with his choices and decisions

    Don't you agree ?

    How do I know that Lou, Torre or Larussa could not have achieved 5 more wins with this team to date?

    20 - 18 .526 and 4th place with hope looks massive, in comparison to the reality of 15 - 23 .395 and dead last to me at this point of the season.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 05-12-2008 at 04:32 PM.

  14. #13
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    20,932

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Some things Baker can do, and those that Baker can and could've done is what he should be held accountable for. Baker has contributed to losses with his choices and decisions

    Don't you agree ?

    How do I know that Lou, Torre or Larussa could not have achieved 5 more wins with this team to date?

    20 - 18 .526 and 4th place with hope looks massive, in comparison to the reality of 15 - 23 .395 and dead last to me at this point of the season.
    But didn't Bill James and some other stat gurus suggest that lineup order is pretty much meaningless. In other words, "optimal" lineups aren't that much better than random ones.

    I don't think any other manager could've gotten 5 more wins out of this club.
    I doubt they could even get one more win.

    If we look through the losses, which losses can you clearly say that Dusty cost us the game? I can't recall any, but I'm open to suggestions.

    The offense hasn't clicked all seasons. We've had periods where Patterson, Kepp, and EdE were hot seperately, but that's about it.

    I wouldn't bat Dunn seventh either, but I hardly think it's cost us any wins.

    For example, the Reds lose yesterday, no matter what the lineup was. They just played horrible. The same can be said for many of their losses.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  15. #14
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,296

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    This team should have been blown up 2 years ago. Now we are just that much further behind.

    These are just wasted years passing by.

  16. #15
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,933

    Re: Dusty should be blamed for Reds losing

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    But didn't Bill James and some other stat gurus suggest that lineup order is pretty much meaningless. In other words, "optimal" lineups aren't that much better than random ones.
    Over the course of the season, an "optimal" lineup is worth in the ballpark of 30-40 runs over a reasonable, but clearly suboptimal one.

    I don't think any other manager could've gotten 5 more wins out of this club.
    I doubt they could even get one more win.

    If we look through the losses, which losses can you clearly say that Dusty cost us the game? I can't recall any, but I'm open to suggestions.

    The offense hasn't clicked all seasons. We've had periods where Patterson, Kepp, and EdE were hot seperately, but that's about it.

    I wouldn't bat Dunn seventh either, but I hardly think it's cost us any wins.

    For example, the Reds lose yesterday, no matter what the lineup was. They just played horrible. The same can be said for many of their losses.
    This debate has happened 100x over, but the real question is how much of the player performance do you attribute to the manager. Holding player performance constant, managers can't do more than a handful of wins and losses with strategy and lineup decisions -- probably 5-6 at the extreme. However, player performance is obviously the primary determinant of team success.

    I don't know of a single Red whose good performance to date has any ties to Dusty as a manager -- perhaps EE. Our players are pretty much playing like who they are. Dusty isn't using them very well, in my opinion, but as you suggest, no manager could've managed these performances to a winning record.

    My problem with the situation is that Dusty is being paid like (and treated) like he has some big positive effect. All I've seen is a guy who misuses his roster, defects blame, and attracts players who the team would be better off without. This team is not playing up to it's capabilities in a number of areas. I simply don't understand what positives he's bringing to the table.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 05-12-2008 at 05:42 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25