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Thread: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

  1. #16
    We are the angry mob cincyinco's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Everything I ever heard/read about Prior was that he had perfect mechanics. Not that he just repeated them.

    I'm a big believer that the level of knowledge about pitching and mechanics - although improved, is still in its infancy in that there's still a ton more we don't know. In other words, a lot more we DONT know, than what we do.

    I'm a believer that there isn't a specific "right way" to pitch - mechanics wise. Deception via unorthodox delivery can be a big benefit. Lincecum's mechanic's never scared me, after reading about his unorthodox workout regimine/throwing program and personal injury history. Likewise, Dontrelle Willis never bothered me either, and a big fan of his windup. Great stuff to watch.
    "I hate to advocate chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... But they've always worked for me."

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  3. #17
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Except Priors mechanics weren't perfect, he just repeated them perfect.
    Hindsight is 20/20. When people say stuff like this:

    Prior a definite two-year stud
    By Will Carroll and Nate Silver
    Special to ESPN.com

    In the terminology of pitching biomechanics, Mark Prior is a freak.

    Stand near Prior in the Cubs' clubhouse, and you'll see that his calves are roughly the size of an average man's thigh. As Prior goes through his delivery and pushes off the rubber, the strong muscles drive his body forward. While the gyrations of a windup like Dontrelle Willis or Hideo Nomo make it difficult to assess their mechanics and add to the deception a hitter faces, Prior's efficient delivery disguises the linear driveline his pitches come through.

    While we all know that the quickest path between two points is a straight line, few pitchers can regularly bring a baseball in a straight line to home plate. Prior can.


    Mark Prior might emerge as the best pitcher in the game.

    According to Gary Heil of the National Pitching Alliance, Prior was tested using high-tech Matrix-like technology to assess his mechanics.

    "No one else was even close," Heil said. "He's the model; he's perfect."

    Dr. Mike Marshall is a former Cy Young Award winner who has completed extensive scientific studies of the pitching motion. Using basic, Newtonian principles of inertia and reaction, Marshall's teachings show that Prior's controlled delivery is near ideal.

    He'd be the Six Million Dollar Bionic Pitcher. Except that when his salary arbitration payday comes up, he'll undoubtedly make a lot more than that.

    But Prior isn't the only pitcher to achieve such success, and receive so much attention, so early in his career. We consulted with our BP colleagues to create a top 10 list of the best two-year debuts by starting pitchers in the modern era. The factors we evaluated, in rough order of priority, were the following: ERA relative to league average (ERA+), wins above replacement level (WARP), strikeout-to-walk ratio, W-L record, and age at time of debut (younger debuts are considered more impressive). We tried not to consider how the pitcher fared down the road, accounting only for the strength of the first two full seasons (50 or more IP) on their own merits.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1623962

    It's kind of difficult to believe others when they say "I always thought his mechanics were bad." If Crow's ripping it up 5 years from now, I'm sure the masses will say that they are so bad they're good. Or something like that.

  4. #18
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Hindsight is 20/20. When people say stuff like this:



    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1623962

    It's kind of difficult to believe others when they say "I always thought his mechanics were bad." If Crow's ripping it up 5 years from now, I'm sure the masses will say that they are so bad they're good. Or something like that.
    While I can't say that back in 2002 I was as into baseball and studying it as I am now, I am sure there were some out there saying his mechanics weren't clean. He has a similar issue that Crow has. That back elbow gets up much higher than his shoulder does as he loads to come forward. That isn't good and it never has been.

  5. #19
    We are the angry mob cincyinco's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Find me a report that says his mechanics were not good Doug.. I challenge you.

    I dont think you'll find it.
    "I hate to advocate chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... But they've always worked for me."

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  6. #20
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by cincyinco View Post
    Find me a report that says his mechanics were not good Doug.. I challenge you.

    I dont think you'll find it.
    I don't think I will either... for several reasons. Firstly, its tough to find stuff online from that long ago. Secondly, its going to be the minority that saw the issue with his mechanics. However, the same flaw Prior has/had is one that people see all the time now in other pitchers.

    I think we, as a whole, don't know nearly as much as we could one day about pitching mechanics and really are just scratching the surface of it. I do know that if I know what I do now back then, I would have been one bringing up his mechanical issue. Kyle Lotzkar has it and it scares the crap out of me. Liriano has it, Zumaya has it, Anthony Reyes has it, John Smoltz has it.

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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    There might be some people having to EAT CROW if this happens.
    Who's on first?

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    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    I'm not advocating the drafting of Crow, but many players have bad mechanics and manage to put together several respectable seasons even though many of those seasons are shortened by injury.

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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Prior#Injuries

    Mark Prior had some uncommon "freak" injuries. I think people overlook that too often.

    I've looked at the video of Crow on MiLB.com, and I'm not seeing this flaw that you're talking about. I'd be happy with Tim or Gordon Beckham, Alvarez, Matusz, Crow, Posey, or Smoak. One of them will be available, and Smoak would be my worst case scenario (which is pretty darn good).
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  10. #24
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by camisadelgolf View Post
    I'm not advocating the drafting of Crow, but many players have bad mechanics and manage to put together several respectable seasons even though many of those seasons are shortened by injury.
    Can you imagine the uproar if they draft Crow and his arm blows up next spring? The Gruler pick times infinity.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  11. #25
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Prior#Injuries

    Mark Prior had some uncommon "freak" injuries. I think people overlook that too often.
    I'm convinced to this day his collision with Giles was what completely threw his mechanics out of whack and turned him into an injury-prone mess. His arm slot never looked the same to me after that. Couple that with the line drive he took off his pitching arm and it's a miracle the guy still has his right arm attached. His pitcher abuse points were also pretty nuts throughout his time with the Cubs.

    Would he have stayed healthy if those two freak injuries and Dusty Baker never happened to him? I can't say. I sincerely doubt he'd have become a walking shoulder injury this early in his career, but down the line is a bit harder to assess. He had a tendency to keep his pitching elbow above his shoulder during his windup (see: The Inverted W). It's not the best thing in the world for a pitcher to have, although more evidence on the subject would be welcome.

    Mechanics are critical to assess. Crow's are a bit screwed up, but, at the same time, reworking a guy's mechanics can be doable. When Verlander was at Old Dominion, he was hitting 100 and showcased some wicked stuff, but his mechanics were screwed up and his control was rather bad (as evidenced by 20 WPs in his junior season). Some of the Tigers' scouts and coaches picked up on a mechanical flaw in his delivery and tweaked it the offseason after he was drafted. The next season, he posted spectacular numbers in High A and AA while getting a cup of coffee in Detroit.

    If you have a guy with mechanical flaws that can be corrected while at the very least keeping his stuff (if not improving it), then, by all means, draft the guy. There are a lot of factors that could go into how successful those mechanical tweaks will be, granted, but it's worth the effort if it pays off.

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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...


  13. #27
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Outshined_One View Post
    I'm convinced to this day his collision with Giles was what completely threw his mechanics out of whack and turned him into an injury-prone mess. His arm slot never looked the same to me after that. Couple that with the line drive he took off his pitching arm and it's a miracle the guy still has his right arm attached. His pitcher abuse points were also pretty nuts throughout his time with the Cubs.

    Would he have stayed healthy if those two freak injuries and Dusty Baker never happened to him? I can't say. I sincerely doubt he'd have become a walking shoulder injury this early in his career, but down the line is a bit harder to assess. He had a tendency to keep his pitching elbow above his shoulder during his windup (see: The Inverted W). It's not the best thing in the world for a pitcher to have, although more evidence on the subject would be welcome.

    Mechanics are critical to assess. Crow's are a bit screwed up, but, at the same time, reworking a guy's mechanics can be doable. When Verlander was at Old Dominion, he was hitting 100 and showcased some wicked stuff, but his mechanics were screwed up and his control was rather bad (as evidenced by 20 WPs in his junior season). Some of the Tigers' scouts and coaches picked up on a mechanical flaw in his delivery and tweaked it the offseason after he was drafted. The next season, he posted spectacular numbers in High A and AA while getting a cup of coffee in Detroit.

    If you have a guy with mechanical flaws that can be corrected while at the very least keeping his stuff (if not improving it), then, by all means, draft the guy. There are a lot of factors that could go into how successful those mechanical tweaks will be, granted, but it's worth the effort if it pays off.
    Sometimes changing a mechanical flaw can do more harm then good though. The muscles are built around that flaw so changing the mechanics can weaken the area. The best time to change something like his wrist curl would be if he was coming back from surgery.

    We played against Crow this year right before he went on his scoreless streak. We had a weak hitting team and managed 2 runs. He looked rather unimpressive until one of our players got into a war of words with him and ticked him off. He followed that by striking the last batter out on 3 pitches. 2 were hard biting sliders. He did do a nice job of working pitches in and out.
    Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball - Jacques Barzun

  14. #28
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    BA is doing a draft chat today and they answered one of my questions:

    Q: Brandon from Charleston, WV asks:
    Hey Matt, who are you hearing the Reds will select at #7?

    A: Matt Blood: The Reds at seven is a very interesting question. If Aaron Crow is still available, they will most likely snatch him. Crow has close to Major League ready stuff, and the Reds need pitching. However, if Gordon Beckham is still available at that pick, don't be surprised to see him taken. Another player to watch is Florida rhp/ss Casey Kelly who's father coaches in the Red's minor league system. However, Kelly is more likely to fit into the Red's second selection.

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/chat/...08052201&rnd=6

  15. #29
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    G Beckham 1 and Casey Kelley 2 would be a nice set of picks to start the draft but I don;t know if Kelley will last that long

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    Re: Baseball America's first mock draft has Reds selecting...

    Hope might triumph over experience and lead me to Posey.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle


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