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Thread: thumbs still bad?

  1. #16
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    yep, the data are not all in, but Billings will be telling. Too bad we don't get the Billings data BEFORE we draft in the first round next month.

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  3. #17
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Just for the sake of information, here's a list of first rounders drafted after Mesoraco who are looking fairly tasty at the moment:

    Peter Kozma
    Tim Alderson
    Aaron Poreda
    James Simmons
    Rick Porcello
    Ben Revere

    It's not a huge list, but there is one guy there who's probably already at top 10 prospect.
    Porcello?
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  4. #18
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Porcello?
    Yeah...he would have been awfully nice to have in the system right now.

  5. #19
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    let me get this straight. he is 19 years old. he is less than a year removed from high school. and some people think he is a bust? give the guy a break.
    honestly, there are a lot of 'fans' on this board who are 100% negative 100% of the time.
    .

  6. #20
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    let me get this straight. he is 19 years old. he is less than a year removed from high school. and some people think he is a bust? give the guy a break.
    honestly, there are a lot of 'fans' on this board who are 100% negative 100% of the time.
    If you can't actually discuss the merits or demerits of Mesoraco's game, I'd suggest resisting the impulse to type nonsense like the above.
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  7. #21
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    If you can't actually discuss the merits or demerits of Mesoraco's game, I'd suggest resisting the impulse to type nonsense like the above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
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  8. #22
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Okay, now it's going to be the cry "We could have had Porcello instead of Devin" for endless months and years ad nauseum. We're still in the throes of all the thrashing about "we could have had Lincecum over Stubbs"

    2005 Jay Bruce. We could have had Jacob Ellsbury? Did we win this one?
    2004 Homer Bailey. We could have had Wade Townsend or Philip Hughes. Another maybe we won but then agin maybe we didn't
    2003 Ryan Wagner. We could have had Chad Billingsley.
    2002 Chris Gruler. We could have had Prince Fielder or Scott Kazmir
    2001 Jeremy Sowers who we didn't even sign. We could have had Bobby Crosby
    2000 David Espinosa We could have had Adam Wainwright
    1999 Ty Howington We could have had Jason Jennings
    1998 Austin Kearns but we could have had Brad Lidge and still had Adam Dunn 2nd rd
    1997 Brandon Larson We could have had Lance Berkman
    1996 John Oliver We could have had Jimmy Rollins

    The same kind of futile exercise can be done for every team in baseball every year. And every year there are plenty of fans who make the right pick and cuss their team's inability to see the future. Some years like the Sowers pick, are just inexcusable punts but most of the time its a crapshoot. For all the Lincecum fever and angst there were lots of people who thought he was an arm blowout waiting to happen, for others it was his size. After Howington and Gruler, and the string of years with pitchers blowing out like Gardner, Pauly and Basham, I think the Reds were shy of pitchers with mechanical issues. There is also the fact that there were plenty of "sure thing" picks that fans and scouts wanted that didn't work out - just look at how many picks before the Reds picked that haven't panned out. The idea that a draft was unsuccessful before a player either hangs it up or makes his mark in the Show is premature. The calls about Stubbs, and Mesaraco, won't be proven "bad" until either one quits or makes it. The fact there were better or faster-to-the-bigs players taken after them is an indictment you can make for almost every team, almost every year. Take drafts as a body of work from round one to the end. The Reds seem to have drafted strongly for the last 3 or 4 years put that way. It shows in the depth. Whether all those guys make it is still to be seen.

  9. #23
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    I haven't seen him play, but have tracked his small sample size stats. I saw all the info about his abilities when he was drafted, but i don't trust scouts all the time. They tend to have a pack mentality.

    Has anybody seen him play in person or tv? Would like to hear what folks think after seeing him in person.

    Does he look like a catcher? Or is he just an athelete behind home plate?
    What are his natural abilities (the reason he got drafted)? Does he have a quick bat? Good foot work? A strong arm?

  10. #24
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    If you can't actually discuss the merits or demerits of Mesoraco's game, I'd suggest resisting the impulse to type nonsense like the above.
    sorry. you are the one who is off base here.

    as i said there are people who are picking on this kid due to the fact that he is off to a slow start to his big league career. they point out someone who we could have drafted instead. wow, that is hard. considering guys like Pujols and Piazza were 40th round draft picks then every GM in baseball is a dolt.
    these are the same guys who focus on the negative aspects of the Reds all the time. if we were 40-1 they would find fault. what exactly is the point?
    .

  11. #25
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Okay, now it's going to be the cry "We could have had Porcello instead of Devin" for endless months and years ad nauseum. We're still in the throes of all the thrashing about "we could have had Lincecum over Stubbs"

    2005 Jay Bruce. We could have had Jacob Ellsbury? Did we win this one?
    2004 Homer Bailey. We could have had Wade Townsend or Philip Hughes. Another maybe we won but then agin maybe we didn't
    2003 Ryan Wagner. We could have had Chad Billingsley.
    2002 Chris Gruler. We could have had Prince Fielder or Scott Kazmir
    2001 Jeremy Sowers who we didn't even sign. We could have had Bobby Crosby
    2000 David Espinosa We could have had Adam Wainwright
    1999 Ty Howington We could have had Jason Jennings
    1998 Austin Kearns but we could have had Brad Lidge and still had Adam Dunn 2nd rd
    1997 Brandon Larson We could have had Lance Berkman
    1996 John Oliver We could have had Jimmy Rollins

    The same kind of futile exercise can be done for every team in baseball every year. And every year there are plenty of fans who make the right pick and cuss their team's inability to see the future. Some years like the Sowers pick, are just inexcusable punts but most of the time its a crapshoot. For all the Lincecum fever and angst there were lots of people who thought he was an arm blowout waiting to happen, for others it was his size. After Howington and Gruler, and the string of years with pitchers blowing out like Gardner, Pauly and Basham, I think the Reds were shy of pitchers with mechanical issues. There is also the fact that there were plenty of "sure thing" picks that fans and scouts wanted that didn't work out - just look at how many picks before the Reds picked that haven't panned out. The idea that a draft was unsuccessful before a player either hangs it up or makes his mark in the Show is premature. The calls about Stubbs, and Mesaraco, won't be proven "bad" until either one quits or makes it. The fact there were better or faster-to-the-bigs players taken after them is an indictment you can make for almost every team, almost every year. Take drafts as a body of work from round one to the end. The Reds seem to have drafted strongly for the last 3 or 4 years put that way. It shows in the depth. Whether all those guys make it is still to be seen.
    well said. i think it takes years to evaluate a draft. since some of these guys are 18 years old a draft should be evaluated 5-10 ( yes 10 ) years later.
    it is too early to say whether wayne's ( or any teams ) 2006 or 2007 draft was good or bad.
    .

  12. #26
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Okay, now it's going to be the cry "We could have had Porcello instead of Devin" for endless months and years ad nauseum. We're still in the throes of all the thrashing about "we could have had Lincecum over Stubbs"

    2005 Jay Bruce. We could have had Jacob Ellsbury? Did we win this one?
    2004 Homer Bailey. We could have had Wade Townsend or Philip Hughes. Another maybe we won but then agin maybe we didn't
    2003 Ryan Wagner. We could have had Chad Billingsley.
    2002 Chris Gruler. We could have had Prince Fielder or Scott Kazmir
    2001 Jeremy Sowers who we didn't even sign. We could have had Bobby Crosby
    2000 David Espinosa We could have had Adam Wainwright
    1999 Ty Howington We could have had Jason Jennings
    1998 Austin Kearns but we could have had Brad Lidge and still had Adam Dunn 2nd rd
    1997 Brandon Larson We could have had Lance Berkman
    1996 John Oliver We could have had Jimmy Rollins

    The same kind of futile exercise can be done for every team in baseball every year. And every year there are plenty of fans who make the right pick and cuss their team's inability to see the future. Some years like the Sowers pick, are just inexcusable punts but most of the time its a crapshoot. For all the Lincecum fever and angst there were lots of people who thought he was an arm blowout waiting to happen, for others it was his size. After Howington and Gruler, and the string of years with pitchers blowing out like Gardner, Pauly and Basham, I think the Reds were shy of pitchers with mechanical issues. There is also the fact that there were plenty of "sure thing" picks that fans and scouts wanted that didn't work out - just look at how many picks before the Reds picked that haven't panned out. The idea that a draft was unsuccessful before a player either hangs it up or makes his mark in the Show is premature. The calls about Stubbs, and Mesaraco, won't be proven "bad" until either one quits or makes it. The fact there were better or faster-to-the-bigs players taken after them is an indictment you can make for almost every team, almost every year. Take drafts as a body of work from round one to the end. The Reds seem to have drafted strongly for the last 3 or 4 years put that way. It shows in the depth. Whether all those guys make it is still to be seen.
    Excellent post. The constant whining about the ultimate sports crapshoot draft, the MLB draft, is kind of pointless. You can't really complain about the way we've been drafting when we have a top half farm system even after our big four completely graduate (and a top five prior to that).

  13. #27
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Okay, now it's going to be the cry "We could have had Porcello instead of Devin" for endless months and years ad nauseum. We're still in the throes of all the thrashing about "we could have had Lincecum over Stubbs"

    2005 Jay Bruce. We could have had Jacob Ellsbury? Did we win this one?
    2004 Homer Bailey. We could have had Wade Townsend or Philip Hughes. Another maybe we won but then agin maybe we didn't
    2003 Ryan Wagner. We could have had Chad Billingsley.
    2002 Chris Gruler. We could have had Prince Fielder or Scott Kazmir
    2001 Jeremy Sowers who we didn't even sign. We could have had Bobby Crosby
    2000 David Espinosa We could have had Adam Wainwright
    1999 Ty Howington We could have had Jason Jennings
    1998 Austin Kearns but we could have had Brad Lidge and still had Adam Dunn 2nd rd
    1997 Brandon Larson We could have had Lance Berkman
    1996 John Oliver We could have had Jimmy Rollins

    The same kind of futile exercise can be done for every team in baseball every year. And every year there are plenty of fans who make the right pick and cuss their team's inability to see the future. Some years like the Sowers pick, are just inexcusable punts but most of the time its a crapshoot. For all the Lincecum fever and angst there were lots of people who thought he was an arm blowout waiting to happen, for others it was his size. After Howington and Gruler, and the string of years with pitchers blowing out like Gardner, Pauly and Basham, I think the Reds were shy of pitchers with mechanical issues. There is also the fact that there were plenty of "sure thing" picks that fans and scouts wanted that didn't work out - just look at how many picks before the Reds picked that haven't panned out. The idea that a draft was unsuccessful before a player either hangs it up or makes his mark in the Show is premature. The calls about Stubbs, and Mesaraco, won't be proven "bad" until either one quits or makes it. The fact there were better or faster-to-the-bigs players taken after them is an indictment you can make for almost every team, almost every year. Take drafts as a body of work from round one to the end. The Reds seem to have drafted strongly for the last 3 or 4 years put that way. It shows in the depth. Whether all those guys make it is still to be seen.
    Sorry, but this is a silly premise. There is ALWAYS someone (with the exception of Bruce in 2005) that COULD have been picked over who the Reds actually selected. The problem with the Stubbs pick was the Reds didn't need him in the system. What they needed was SP and what they really needed was close to major league ready SP. In 2002, Kazmir was the OBVIOUS choice. I don't remember too many people having a problem with the Wagner pick. Kid had talent and a Tomko head. no way to really know that. 2001 was a punt pick as Sowers was never going to sign and the Reds knew it. They could have picked any of the next 20 guys taken and gotten more value.

    And on and on and on. It isn't so much as who the Reds should have taken as it is who thay did take, and the thought process behind the pick.

    Sad thing is, the regime keeps changing, but the same dumb things keep happening. What I find hysterical is the 2 best 1st rd picks the Reds have had since 1998 came under DanO's watch.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #28
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    wasn't Porcello clearly a Top 10 talent, but wanted a big signing bonus? If he was a better talent than Mesoraco, but wasn't drafted because of the money issue, I think we have a reason to complain...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  15. #29
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Sorry, but this is a silly premise. There is ALWAYS someone (with the exception of Bruce in 2005) that COULD have been picked over who the Reds actually selected. The problem with the Stubbs pick was the Reds didn't need him in the system. What they needed was SP and what they really needed was close to major league ready SP. In 2002, Kazmir was the OBVIOUS choice. I don't remember too many people having a problem with the Wagner pick. Kid had talent and a Tomko head. no way to really know that. 2001 was a punt pick as Sowers was never going to sign and the Reds knew it. They could have picked any of the next 20 guys taken and gotten more value.

    And on and on and on. It isn't so much as who the Reds should have taken as it is who thay did take, and the thought process behind the pick.

    Sad thing is, the regime keeps changing, but the same dumb things keep happening. What I find hysterical is the 2 best 1st rd picks the Reds have had since 1998 came under DanO's watch.
    I disagree that Kazmir was OBVIOUS. Gruler actually was much more projectable. Your point that there is ALWAYS someone else is exactly my point. All the crying and hand wringing is pointless. Your point about Wagner is exactly right - there is no way of knowing - about ANY of them. As for the regime doing dumb things I disagree, that's all. The last two drafts may not have been great to this point per the #1 pick but they were good strong drafts top to bottom.

  16. #30
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    Re: thumbs still bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    The problem with the Stubbs pick was the Reds didn't need him in the system. What they needed was SP and what they really needed was close to major league ready SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    And on and on and on. It isn't so much as who the Reds should have taken as it is who thay did take, and the thought process behind the pick.

    1. We DEFINITELY need a CF with excellent defense and a serviceable bat in the system. Unless you're a fan of Patterson. The needs of the season of the draft aren't necessarily going to be the same needs two or three years later, when that talent is ready for the primetime. Which leads to point number 2...

    2. You don't draft based on need, you draft the best pick available.


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