Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 32

Thread: The defense--you can't win with this...

  1. #1
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,920

    The defense--you can't win with this...

    ...no matter what your team OPS is.

    Just for expediency's sake, I'll reduce the descriptions of Reds starters to four: plus, average, shaky and poor.

    The current starters:

    C Paul Bako: plus
    1B Joey Votto: shaky
    2B Brandon Phillips: plus
    SS Jerry Hairston, Jr.: shaky
    3B Edwin Encarnacion: shaky
    LF Adam Dunn: poor
    CF Corey Patterson: plus
    RF Ken Griffey Jr.: average

    So that's: 2 plus, 1 average, 3 shaky, and 1 poor. They are 5th worst in MLB in unearned runs with 26. They are 5th worst in MLB in errors with 36. Beautifully pitched games are being thrown away. It also contributes to a general sense of sloppiness that is now being equated with Reds baseball--it is, in a word, unentertaining. What's to be done?

    IMO, one part of the answer is easy--replace Hairston with Janish, who is an average defender (and may be a plus, but we need to see him play to find out.)
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,434

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Griffey doesn't belong anywhere but poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  4. #3
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,884

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    ...no matter what your team OPS is.

    Just for expediency's sake, I'll reduce the descriptions of Reds starters to four: plus, average, shaky and poor.

    The current starters:

    C Paul Bako: plus
    1B Joey Votto: shaky
    2B Brandon Phillips: plus
    SS Jerry Hairston, Jr.: shaky
    3B Edwin Encarnacion: shaky
    LF Adam Dunn: poor
    CF Corey Patterson: plus
    RF Ken Griffey Jr.: average

    So that's: 2 plus, 1 average, 3 shaky, and 1 poor. They are 5th worst in MLB in unearned runs with 26. They are 5th worst in MLB in errors with 36. Beautifully pitched games are being thrown away. It also contributes to a general sense of sloppiness that is now being equated with Reds baseball--it is, in a word, unentertaining. What's to be done?

    IMO, one part of the answer is easy--replace Hairston with Janish, who is an average defender (and may be a plus, but we need to see him play to find out.)
    Agree with the concept, but Griffey is in no way average. He is worse than poor and the primary culprit IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  5. #4
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Guelph, ON
    Posts
    16,101

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Your scale is a bit odd given that there is one value above average and two values below it. But KG Jr is quite possibly the worst defender on the team and belongs in the poor category.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #5
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,920

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    So it seems to me that the most obvious move is trading Griffey, even for a low return, and plugging in Bruce, a plus defender, in RF for the next 15 years. But the question I'm interested in hearing opinions on are the tougher ones--how many streaky, big-stick hitters who play shaky or poor defense can a poor defensive team afford to have? In an absolute sense, Encarnacion makes up for his shaky defense with the bat. IMO you can afford to have a player like that when your team plays average defense. But in the Reds' case, it really makes the question much tougher. The same difficulty comes with Dunn, Griffey and Votto. I am in no way a Corey Patterson fan, but someone needs to be working the outfield by a means other than by telegram. The issues are severe and looking at offense alone is a poverty of thinking--when you are hideous in the defensive third of the game it really messes with offensive choices. I would consider moving Edwin, Dunn, and Griffey. For argument's sake, let's say that were done for NO RETURN--the lineup could ultimately be:

    Keppinger 3B
    Hairston LF
    Bruce RF
    Votto 1B
    Phillips 2B
    Bako C
    Freel CF
    Gonzalez SS

    So with NO RETURN on the trades mind you, that's an entire lineup of plus defenders except for Votto who is shaky, but I expect him to improve. And yes, I do think Keppinger is a plus defender at 3rd. Would the offensive production go down? I don't know--consider Bruce to be Dunn's replacement even though he'd play Griffey's position. Do you think Jay Bruce will be as productive as Adam Dunn? I do. Keppinger's OPS is .819 next to Encarnacion's .754. Hairston's OPS is .796 next to Griffey's .718. Freel's .763 outclasses Patterson's .596. You possibly do lose some production with Gonzalez at SS. And I know we're talking numbers from 1/4 of a season here, and that I'm talking about moving a hall of famer (Griffey), a possible hall of famer (Dunn) and a guy who we've seen have an electric bat at times. I just want to show that it is possible to put together an excellent defensive team out of this roster--and that, with guys who have performed well at the plate this year.
    Last edited by Wheelhouse; 05-26-2008 at 02:48 AM.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  7. #6
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,648

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Seriously, if you put Janish at SS full-time and send Griffey to the bench, the defense actually isn't too bad.

    And, the correct statement is: "You can't win with this bullpen." Defense was like #5 on the list of Reds problems today.
    Championships Matter.
    24 Years and Counting...

  8. #7
    Member Wheelhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,920

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    Seriously, if you put Janish at SS full-time and send Griffey to the bench, the defense actually isn't too bad.

    And, the correct statement is: "You can't win with this bullpen." Defense was like #5 on the list of Reds problems today.
    I wasn't posting about today, but since you want to address today, the bottom line is the 3 runs that won the game for SD were unearned.
    Last edited by Wheelhouse; 05-26-2008 at 03:12 AM.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

  9. #8
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,884

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    I posted this in another thread, but its how I'd approach things until better personnel can be acquired.

    Implement a platoon system that is based on defensive needs (as opposed to RH/LH offensive match-ups based on the opposing starter). The Reds are a team with too many guys who are offense oriented (Freel, Hairston, Keppinger) but probably not good enough offensively to be worth a poor glove all the time (like say Dunn is). The Reds also have a couple guys who are plus defenders but iffy with the bat (Patterson, Janish). The team needs to find balance. The Reds have three fairly extreme fly ball starters in Harang, Arroyo and Cueto. When they are on the mound the team needs Patterson in CF (with Bruce in RF). Volquez, Belisle and until this year Fogg were more ground ball guys. When they pitch, Janish should play SS IMO. I think its obvious that the Reds need a lead-off guy who can get on base without completely killing the defense and switching these guys in and out seems to be the best plan. When the fly ball guys are on the mound, play Keppinger (Hairston for now) at SS and let him lead-off. Patterson plays CF and bats 7th. When the ground ball guys are out there, Janish plays SS and hits 7th with Freel (or Hairston) in CF in the lead-off spot. I think there is something to the RH/LH match-ups, but finding an offense/defense balance is more important at this point. With this plan filling the number 1 and 7 spots, the five core guys (Dunn, Bruce, EdE, Votto and Phillips) can bat 2 - 6. The catcher, of course, should always hit 8th on this team. I think this coupled with subbing Bruce for Griffey should greatly improve the team defense without completely conceding the offense. Until more two way players are acquired, its the best hope IMO.

    The prerequisite is that Bruce replaces Griffey in RF.
    Last edited by mth123; 05-26-2008 at 03:58 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    3,758

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Let's try this way. 1-5 scale where 5 = gold glove 1 = statue

    C Paul Bako: 4
    1B Joey Votto: 3
    2B Brandon Phillips: 5
    SS Jerry Hairston, Jr.: 1
    3B Edwin Encarnacion: 3
    LF Adam Dunn: 2
    CF Corey Patterson: 4
    RF Ken Griffey Jr.: 1

    Where could you argue? Maybe Votto is a 2 rather then a 3, although I like his range and athleticism. Maybe EE is a 2 rather than a 3, although I think he has good range, offset by his throwing errors. Maybe Dunn is not a 2, although I'd argue up rather than down given his postition (LFers are not an elite class of defenders) and the fact his errors are down.

    Kepp maybe is a 2 rather than Hairston's 1, but Janish is the real defensive answer there, probably a 4. Bruce is probably a 4 out in RF but good luck pulling that one off unless Jr is moved. If you slotted Bruce and Janish in, I think this is actually a good defensive team. Would we have enough offense? Doubtful, but given the numbers the front of the rotation is putting up, that might be OK. Really nice thing is that if you make those two moves, you only have one position (catcher) where you are a little older than you would like. Everyone else is relatively young.

    Given that, I'd push for upgrades at CF and Catcher and make sure I brought Dunn back. In fact, I could even live with Patterson in CF in 2009 if he wasn't batting leadoff. Unfortunately, we don't have a decent leadoff option.

  11. #10
    Captain Rounding Third's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Posts
    384

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Plus/Minus System

    Name (MLB Rank) Score

    Joey Votto (5) +5
    Brandon Phillips (10) +2
    Edwin Encarnacion (29) -5
    Adam Dunn (31) -5
    Corey Patterson (1) +6
    Ken Griffey Jr. (26) - 2

    Just another point of reference for them. Patterson is great defensively like its been said before, anywhere but leadoff (and 3rd) and I'm almost ok with him.

  12. #11
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelhouse View Post
    RF Ken Griffey Jr.: average
    :runawaycr
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  13. #12
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    It's got to be the worst across the board in MLB and that's not hyperbole. Amazingly bad. I bet if you did some research the Reds' bat boys might even lead the league in errors.

  14. #13
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    4,716

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Griffey is average defensively... for a broken-down, 38-year-old outfielder with zero range, zero speed and diminished instincts. But compared to all Major League RFs, he is far below average IMO.

  15. #14
    Member Marc D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,776

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    Honest question, is it too simplistic to think that is the 4 corner guys were all hitting that a team could afford to carry all glove no hit types in CF, SS, 2B and C?

    If so we are one step ahead by having a plus defender who can hit at 2B.

    The problem as I see it through this simplistic prisim is that our RF spot isn't hitting enough(and left field just started hitting enough) to make this work. So if we could get a plus bat in RF that could also play good defense as an added bonus we should be a lot better off right? If we just had someone like that ready to go....


    Seriously, Bruce to RF, Janish to SS and leave CP in CF(just not hitting 1st) would give you plus defense at every up the middle position as well as RF. EE and Votto are young and prone to mistakes but I can live with both. There is no need to worry about Defense from LF, we need the Donky's bat.

  16. #15
    Captain Rounding Third's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Northern Kentucky
    Posts
    384

    Re: The defense--you can't win with this...

    So essentially you want to have 3 #8 hitters? No, I don't think we can win with that. If Dusty actually puts our a correct batting order our number 6 hitter would be Paul Janish or Corey Patterson.

    Also, SS is Kepp's position when he returns. And next year the team will look much different. So even less than a year in advance there were be changes at a lot of positions.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25