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Thread: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

  1. #1
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    He lets Patterson bat against a LH pitcher in the 8th and he lets Bako hit against a LH pitcher in the 9th? I am just floored here....
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Its because we didn't have a righty off the bench to hit against the lefty that had only allowed 2 hits all year. Oh wait, we actually had 3 of them.

    I thought Patterson had to bat leadoff in order to split the lefties? But him and Bruce can go back to back? And then Dunn and Votto go back to back?

    Dusty is like Michael from The Office. I am waiting for Stanley to flip out on him and yell at him and say something like, "Everyday I think you couldn't possibly be stupider, but everyday you and your damn little peahead brain do something stupider and stupider." Or something like that...

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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Maybe in a one run ballgame he wanted his good defensive centerfielder to stay in the game.

    He probably should have hit for Bako, but if Ross came up Phils would have gone to a righty.

    Dusty handled the pitchers well in that game and managed just fine.

    Every time Patterson's name appears on the lineup card, fans start going after Dusty. It's not his fault Griffey has general soreness and Freel an injured hamstring.

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Maybe in a one run ballgame he wanted his good defensive centerfielder to stay in the game.

    He probably should have hit for Bako, but if Ross came up Phils would have gone to a righty.

    Dusty handled the pitchers well in that game and managed just fine.

    Every time Patterson's name appears on the lineup card, fans start going after Dusty. It's not his fault Griffey has general soreness and Freel an injured hamstring.
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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    He lets Patterson bat against a LH pitcher in the 8th and he lets Bako hit against a LH pitcher in the 9th? I am just floored here....
    And he promotes the idea that he is concerned about lefty, lefty in the lineups but lets the two worst left handed batters hit against a good left handed pitcher. Baker is a walking contradiction, utilizing buzz words for the media and fans when it is convenient, but his acts contradict him.

    Escalation of commitment, Baker wanted these guys brought into the Reds organization because they are players that he had seen and was familiar with and he is doing everything he can to try and make it look justifiable, but the players aren’t good enough and it makes Baker look like he is some obsessed fanatic over those ex-Cubs, and a very poor judge of talent.

    The worst part is how bad a judge of talent and skills that Baker apparently really is, Baker really believed that Patterson, Mercker, Bako and Hairston were the right men for the job in Cincy.

    Baker continues to do Patterson a disfavor by batting him up in the order when Patterson might actually contribute batting down in the order, where he has in the past. Jocketty has his work cut out for him, form fitting a team for Baker.

    Defined:
    Escalation of commitment is the phenomenon where people increase their investment in a decision despite new evidence suggesting that the decision was probably wrong.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-04-2008 at 10:32 PM.

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    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Every time Patterson's name appears on the lineup card, fans start going after Dusty. It's not his fault Griffey has general soreness and Freel an injured hamstring.
    Hairston can play center, Janish is a shortstop. Patterson pretends to be a baseball player, and the only good thing my dad pointed out tonight: If Patterson hits in front of Bruce, Bruce gets to come to the plate faster.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    So now, in order to criticize Baker, we consider Mercker a Baker ex-Cub favorite? I seem to remember him being an ex Red who played with the team three times, lives nearby and wanted to pitch again with the team.

    And Hairston and Bako have made a pretty solid contribution. Bako hit very well early and filled in well when Ross was hurt. He's slumping now, but some of his teammates have also slumped and they are not ex-Cubs.

    Patterson started off hot, then went into a deep slump. Baker didn't just keep him -- he sent him to AAA. Only when Freel and Griffey got hurt did Patterson return.

    I think the last few weeks have shown that Baker can win when he has the talent. I didn't read all the criticism when Bruce was hitting .600 and the team was winning virtually every home game.

    Baker has done very well in the single most important aspect of in game managing, his use of pitchers. The starters are throwing a reasonable number of pitches. Relievers are not being overused. Dusty obviously tries to rest relievers when possible and is very aware of their workload.

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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Baker really believed that Patterson, Mercker, Bako and Hairston were the right men for the job in Cincy.
    Come on now. Bako gave the Reds a shot when they needed him most while Ross was out. His defense is a plus and he has handled the young pitchers really well. His bat is what it is. Once again, I am not going to hate the player because Dusty misuses him in situations like tonight when he should have been pinch hit for.

    Hairston has been very valuable and plays all over, has hit and run well and has tried his best playing at a position he isn't suited to. I actualy like the guy's contributions so far.

    Merck came in and pitched decently. I don't remember him killing the Reds in any games like Lincoln, or Weathers. Besides Mercker wasn't brought back because of Dusty, but because of his ties to the team.

    Patterson. Well, I'm not defending this - on Patterson I agree with you. I'd as soon see Dickerson getting his shot but Dusty really seems to have a blind spot when it comes to Corey.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Maybe in a one run ballgame he wanted his good defensive centerfielder to stay in the game.

    He probably should have hit for Bako, but if Ross came up Phils would have gone to a righty.

    Dusty handled the pitchers well in that game and managed just fine.

    Every time Patterson's name appears on the lineup card, fans start going after Dusty. It's not his fault Griffey has general soreness and Freel an injured hamstring.
    Don't forget that lineup that sets the Reds up to have less than maximized chances by not utilizing his highest OPB batters, and stunts like sending Dunn who was picked off. Hairston another error on a routine ground ball while a slick fielding shortstop sits. How about having Freel man center when Baker is on record saying that center is a lot of running for a player with past leg problems though Freel had those past leg problems.

    Why is it that Baker makes it so easy to criticize him?
    Why isnít harder ?
    Who is responsible for that,
    the manager himself is.

    No excuse for batting Patterson up in the order
    No excuse for Hairston not playing the outfield and Janish helping out the pitching by his fielding at SS.
    No excuse for having Phillips bat cleanup, especially against RH pitching.

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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Don't forget that lineup that sets the Reds up to have less than maximized chances by not utilizing his highest OPB batters, and stunts like sending Dunn who was picked off. Hairston another error on a routine ground ball while a slick fielding shortstop sits. How about having Freel man center when Baker is on record saying that center is a lot of running for a player with past leg problems though Freel had those past leg problems.

    Why is it that Baker makes it so easy to criticize him?
    Why isn’t harder ?
    Who is responsible for that,
    the manager himself is.

    No excuse for batting Patterson up in the order
    No excuse for Hairston not playing the outfield and Janish helping out the pitching by his fielding at SS.
    No excuse for having Phillips bat cleanup, especially against RH pitching.
    Reason for batting Patterson up in order -- Baker obviously wants to hit EE and Votto lower in the order because they are kids and he doesn't want them in pressure situations. He also thinks that Patterson is due to go on a little hot streak. He also likes speed higher in the order. You may not agree, but it's not irrational.

    Reason for not playing Hairston in center -- Dusty wants a plus centerfielder, a key defensive position, when he doesn't have his full starting outfield.

    Reason for hitting Phillips cleanup -- Just like Narron did, just like McKannin did, he likes to break up lefties and hit Phillips fourth. If he had a better righty option he might do it differently. Phillips helped key the win tonight and had an .850 OPS coming into the game (after a slump).
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-04-2008 at 10:49 PM.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Come on now. Bako gave the Reds a shot when they needed him most while Ross was out. His defense is a plus and he has handled the young pitchers really well. His bat is what it is. Once again, I am not going to hate the player because Dusty misuses him in situations like tonight when he should have been pinch hit for.

    Hairston has been very valuable and plays all over, has hit and run well and has tried his best playing at a position he isn't suited to. I actualy like the guy's contributions so far.

    Merck came in and pitched decently. I don't remember him killing the Reds in any games like Lincoln, or Weathers. Besides Mercker wasn't brought back because of Dusty, but because of his ties to the team.

    Patterson. Well, I'm not defending this - on Patterson I agree with you. I'd as soon see Dickerson getting his shot but Dusty really seems to have a blind
    spot when it comes to Corey.
    But has Dusty Baker gave the Reds their best shot throughout when they needed him most to make wise management and player resource decisions througout the season, seems to me to be the real question.

    Baker had a blind spot when it came to Jay Bruce too. That injury to Ross that sent Ross to rehab and the DL was disputed by Ross too, that is what opened the door for Bako, I have no idea how Ross and Bruce might have produced for this team, and we will never know who or what players might have been brought in if the unemployed ex-cubs were not given jobs in their place.

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    Raaaaaaaandy guttle11's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    What is it with (Insert Redzoner here) and Chris Denorfia?

    Everyone has guys that they gravitate toward, regardless of what conventional wisdom or numbers say. I'd rather have Dickerson and all, but it's not that big of a deal. Patterson is here for this year and this year only.
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    Member Marc D's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    The team is playing very well so I am not going to sit here and criticize Dusty except to say he can't keep running Patterson out there. Its just not fair to the rest of the team. The man cannot hit MLB pitching and he isn't capable of forming the concept of taking a walk, much less executing it.

    I like Dusty sticking with consistent lineuups, I like the way this team is playing, I'm not worried too much about the small tactical errors he may or may not be making. That said, I cannot give anyone a pass that voluntarily uses Patterson and on top of that uses him in the 1 or 2 hole.

  15. #14
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Reason for batting Patterson up in order

    KC
    I know that you are perceptive and observant and do your homework on these players, and that you know that Patterson never was a good leadoff hitter and that Corey himself was covered by Chicago media explaining that he did not like to lead off, and his stats would support that he, Patterson is correct, we also know that Patterson actually had some success batting down in the order.

    -- Baker obviously wants to hit EE and Votto lower in the order because they are kids and he doesn't want them in pressure situations.
    Perhaps the early reviews on Baker were correct in that he is more of a pro-veteran, anti-young player type of manager. He, Baker certainly did not start the youngest member of the position players in a spot pressure free, by starting Bruce out in the two slot, and not down in the order taking the pressure off of him. I have to believe that the real reason to bat Votto down in the order has to do with his left-right splits after he starts out batting the SS/CF one two regardless of their skill levels to do so effectively. Baker has made himself clear on his need and want for speed in CF, yet he ignores the fact that Patterson might be that man in CF, but he is not that man at the plate. On one hand he makes the claim by using defense as the justification, on the other hand he contradicts his defending the CF rationalizations by not using Janish at shortstop and using Hairston a man that Baker admitted in the media that he did not know if Hairston could play shortstop, but, Hairston said that he could. If the theory is defense in center, it would follow even more that defense is paramount at ss.

    He also thinks that Patterson is due to go on a little hot streak. He also likes speed higher in the order.
    The rhetoric that Baker uses now with Patterson and Hairston is consistent with what he did in Chicago with Patterson and Hairston, they even sent Patterson down and then back up to bat leadoff after Corey Patterson had a change of mind and heart, seeing the light after he was sent down to AAA.


    You may not agree, but it's not irrational.
    Escalation of commitment is not irrational either but it happens when Baker is looking for a confirmation bias that his choices and decisions are correct in spite of the results.

    Reason for not playing Hairston in center -- Dusty wants a plus centerfielder, a key defensive position, when he doesn't have his full starting outfield.
    And the reason for not playing Janish at a very key defensive position and reason then, I cannot follow because Bakers words and actions are not supported by each other.

    Reason for hitting Phillips cleanup -- Just like Narron did, just like McKannin did, he likes to break up lefties and hit Phillips fourth. If he had a better righty option he might do it differently. Phillips helped key the win tonight and had an .850 OPS coming into the game (after a slump).
    What would be wrong with Dunn, Votto, Encarncion or even Bruce in the cleanup spot against RH pitchers? According to the Baker theories?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-04-2008 at 11:13 PM.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What is it with Baker and his ex-Cubs????

    Quote Originally Posted by guttle11 View Post
    What is it with (Insert Redzoner here) and Chris Denorfia?

    Everyone has guys that they gravitate toward, regardless of what conventional wisdom or numbers say. I'd rather have Dickerson and all, but it's not that big of a deal. Patterson is here for this year and this year only.
    That is a presumption that each of us makes, but that is not necessarily true, the fact that Patterson was brought in off the FA unemployment line is indicator enough when coupled with Bakers comments that Patterson very well could be back next year.

    Most have said that the FA market is pretty void of talent, and it might not be fast and easy for Jocketty to upgrade his CF positon over the winter, and Patterson could be back as a fourth outfielder too, and end up starting.


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