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Thread: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

  1. #1
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    It seems like Katz writes a whiny article like this every couple months or so. I know he probably gets tired of watching a loser but doing what's best for the player is the most important thing.

    Dragons moving up; team making little progress
    Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

    By Marc Katz

    the Dayton Daily News

    Thursday, June 05, 2008

    All of a sudden, players are moving up in the Cincinnati Reds farm system at warp speed.

    Those times of being patient to a fault seem to be over.

    That's a good thing for the players, and a good thing for the Reds. It's a bad thing for the Class A Dayton Dragons ... a very bad thing.

    With the best players moving ahead quicker, teams in the low minors are having a problem finding a way to win.

    "In the last couple years, our system's gotten stronger," said Reds farm director Terry Reynolds. "We have more players that have the ability to move."

    Players are moved up for two reasons. One, they're considered good enough to be successful at the next level. Two, there's a need for a certain position player or pitcher at the next level. For instance, when shortstop Chris Valaika was moved from "high" A Sarasota to AA, Todd Frazier was moved from the Dragons to Sarasota. Frazier was hitting .321 with the Dragons, and no one on the team now is close to that kind of batting average. The Dragons were in first place when Frazier was here. They're virtually out of contention now.

    "We're not trying to win championships in the minor leagues," Reynolds said. "If that happens, that's a great benefit. Our goal is to create big leaguers, and you do that by promoting players when you feel they're ready, or if you have a need on a club to fill a spot."

    Reynolds said there are three possible ways for Dayton to get better: improvement of players already here, two to four players still at extended spring training and the two-day draft that begins today, June 5.

    "The way kids get better and grow is they go through some tough times," Reynolds said. "Guys who can handle adversity move up. Those who don't, move out."

    Reynolds is in only his second season as farm director, so maybe he didn't notice the adversity the system has already been through. For instance, the Dragons failed to make the playoffs four straight seasons before last year's team made it. That's tough to do, since four of the six teams in Dayton's division make the postseason.

    And while last year's Dragons team was a good one, as Reynolds points out, by the time the playoffs arrived, the best players had already been moved up. Again, good for the players, but a fine slap in the face for the most well-attended team in the Reds' organization.

    Even two years ago when Jay Bruce, Paul Janish and John Cueto now all with the Reds played on the Dragons, they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe that's why the Reds are working on an eighth straight losing season. In the minors, their culture is to develop the players. Team championships appear to be an afterthought.

    That might not be the best way to go.

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/con...8spinside.html
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  3. #2
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    "Even two years ago when Jay Bruce, Paul Janish and John Cueto now all with the Reds played on the Dragons, they didn't make the playoffs. Maybe that's why the Reds are working on an eighth straight losing season. In the minors, their culture is to develop the players. Team championships appear to be an afterthought."

    That guy is a moron. nough said

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    Member medford's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    There were similar articles last season, or maybe 2 seasons ago. I think Dayton got a little spoiled early on when they made the postseason nearly every year for first 3-5 seasons.

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    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    They've made the playoffs 3 times in 8 years, only one past the first round.

    They still average a half-million fans per year.

    I think there's enough draw that will keep the rears in the seats at 5/3 Field. I've been to a couple of other ballparks in the MWL and the Dragons have the Taj Mahal.

    There was an short rumor running around town the Mandalay wanted to make Dayton a AA, but then they'd have to play in the Eastern League and Mandalay would have to buy an existing AA franchise and it's all too complicated.
    Last edited by Heath; 06-05-2008 at 07:35 AM.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Draft Gordon Beckham and send him straight to Dayton. Then with both Beckham and Mesoraco - two first round draft picks - on the roster the Dragons' complaints should fade away pretty quick.

    I do suppose the Reds could send a guy like Beckham to Billings, and I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I think he'd just maul the Pioneer League.
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    Member OesterPoster's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Katz is a tool. He regularly misspells Dragons' player names and gets his facts wrong a ton of the time. I'd trust nothing he says.

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    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    I never could understand worrying about how a minor league "team" is doing. If they are winning, great, but I wouldn't lose sleep if my hometown team wasn't winning.

    I grew up in Columbus and cannot remember ever giving a hoot about the Clippers or their league standing. They are a farm club. I go to watch the players and realize full well that if they are any good their stay will be brief.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    I never could understand worrying about how a minor league "team" is doing. If they are winning, great, but I wouldn't lose sleep if my hometown team wasn't winning.

    I grew up in Columbus and cannot remember ever giving a hoot about the Clippers or their league standing. They are a farm club. I go to watch the players and realize full well that if they are any good their stay will be brief.
    Yeah, I think though that when you have 7000 season ticket holders though that while they like seeing the Jay Bruce's and Joey Votto's that they like seeing a winner too. Developing players should and does come first but for the fans of the Dayton Dragons (and not the fans of the Reds) winning probably means something to them.

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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, I think though that when you have 7000 season ticket holders though that while they like seeing the Jay Bruce's and Joey Votto's that they like seeing a winner too. Developing players should and does come first but for the fans of the Dayton Dragons (and not the fans of the Reds) winning probably means something to them.
    But at the same token most Dragons fans are Reds fans, and don't care as much about the winning and more about the players that they hope will one day lead the Reds back to the promise land....Thats at least how I feel about it

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Somebody needs to tell Katz that the Dragons exist for the purpose of supplying the Reds with talent. No Reds, no Dragons. Besides, I don't know anybody who goes to a minor league baseball game because of the team's record...
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Yeah, I think though that when you have 7000 season ticket holders though that while they like seeing the Jay Bruce's and Joey Votto's that they like seeing a winner too. Developing players should and does come first but for the fans of the Dayton Dragons (and not the fans of the Reds) winning probably means something to them.
    Ok, so they win. What does it mean? Win your league and claim to be the 121st best team in professional baseball? I guess I just never could understand it.

    I guess you could compare it to college sports, but at least in in college there is more pride at stake with rivalries (usually state vs. state) and the kids chose to go to that particular college. The kids playing for the Dragons would be out of Dayton in a heartbeat if they had the choice.

    I had season tickets with the Clippers for a few years and never did it enter my mind to give them up if they were losing. If I were a season ticket holder with the Dragons, I don't think anything would keep me from continuing to go and enjoy baseball in such a beautiful ballpark. That's just me.
    Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 06-05-2008 at 10:50 AM.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    Ok, so they win. What does it mean? Win your league and claim to be the 121st best team in professional baseball? I guess I just never could understand it.

    I guess you could compare it to college sports, but at least in in college there is more pride at stake with rivalries (usually state vs. state) and the kids chose to go to that particular college. The kids playing for the Dragons would be out of Dayton in a heartbeat if they had the choice.

    I had season tickets with the Clippers for a few years and never did it enter my mind to give them up if they were losing. If I were a season ticket holder and the Dragons I don't think anything would keep me from continuing to go and enjoy baseball in such a beautiful ballpark. That's just me.
    I am not saying its right, but there are some people who do feel that way. I don't care if we have the St Lucie Mets record, just take your players and improve their skills.

  14. #13
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    That's a valid point Doug, but I question just how many "hard core" dragon fans there really are. I'm guessing most of those 7,000 season ticket holders are more fans of the "Dragon's experience" than they are of the actual Dragons themselves.

    While I can only speak for myself, I know when I go to a Dragons game, I'm more interested in seeing a particular player or 2 for the Dragons. I've seen Kearns, Dunn, Wily Mo, Homer, Howington, Gruler, Acevedo, Olmedo, Janish, Stubbs, etc..... Seeing these invidivual players for the Dragons has always been more intriguring to me than the actual result of the game.

    My father and brother in law both have season tickets. I'm guessing my father doesn't go to more than 1-2 games a year, but uses his tickets for his clients. I'm guessing my brother in law goes to about 10 games a year as he & my sister have young kids, but then gives the rest away to his clients and/or employees. I'm guessing a sizable chunk of that 7,000 season ticket holder fall into that group.

    For somebody in the greater Dayton area, the Dragons, are closer, cheaper, less time consuming and sometimes more enjoyable than a Reds game. You may not know many of the players, but if you're a Reds fan in general, you'll often know about 1-2 or more of them. You still get to sit outside in a nice park and watch a game of baseball. You can catch most of a game, if not all of it, and still get the kids in bed by 10:00 - 10:30. There's more action b/w innings that appeal to small children that lose their attention rather quickly.

    I doubt the Dragons winning or lossing has much effect on the average fan. The players themselves probably care a whole lot more, which I would think in turn would effect the men who cover them (Katz)

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    Quote Originally Posted by medford View Post
    I doubt the Dragons winning or lossing has much effect on the average fan. The players themselves probably care a whole lot more, which I would think in turn would effect the men who cover them (Katz)
    That sums it up pretty well I would say.

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    Re: Dragons moving up; team making little progress

    This is about the 50th article Katz has written whining about this sort of thing. I get it that you want to see your team win, but at some point you would think they might understand what the purpose of a Low A minor league team is.


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