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Thread: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

  1. #16
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Reds fan, both on this board and off the board do seem to have something to grind with him for some reason. A lot of it gets seen on these boards. A lot of it is seen at games (I go off on at least one person at every home game about it).

    I disagree with the posting situations of the boards being separate. nothing I can do about it, but I do think its silly to have multiple boards for the same discussions.

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  3. #17
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    I've been told by those old enough to have seen both situations that watching Griffey now is similar to watching Willie Mays finish his career.

    Griffey's washed up as a position player and could extend his career a few years if he played as a DH for some AL team. He's been washed up as a position player since probably 2006, but he continues to go out there and attempt to perform, and for that I applaud him. He's had countless surgeries, rehabbed numerous times, and has never quit; all admirable. However, as a Red, he's standing in the way of Jay Bruce. Jay Bruce needs to be our everyday RF, not Griffey. In the short term, playing Jay Bruce in CF is a band-aid for this team.

    Do I wish Griffey's tenure in Cincinnati had been different? You betcha.
    Is there anything we can do about the past? Absolutely not.

  4. #18
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    There is no appreciation for baseball here,
    That's just not true, not at all.

  5. #19
    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    That's just not true, not at all.
    That's what I took exception to as well. Otherwise, I found it to be an excllent post - one of the best I've read on here in a long tme. I understand people don't like name-calling but hell, sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade.

  6. #20
    OCS Prez Cant Touch This's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
    That's what I took exception to as well. Otherwise, I found it to be an excllent post - one of the best I've read on here in a long tme. I understand people don't like name-calling but hell, sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade.
    Fair enough. That comment was a misplaced generalization and not an accurate representation of a good portion of what I read here. The point, I think, was that overconsumption with the metrics appears to show a lack of appreciation for the other, more classic intricacies of the sport. This may be just that - a perception - but that's how it comes off. Still, as mentioned later, there's enough about baseball to love that there is no one way to love it.

    I just don't care for the incessant player bashing. Sorry.
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  7. #21
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Philly fans and positive attributes used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

  8. #22
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    there's enough about baseball to love that there is no one way to love it.
    I think you understand it now...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  9. #23
    Member Stephenk29's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Philly fans and positive attributes used in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
    which makes it all the more shocking, and embarrassing on our part. I agree with Dougdirt, there is at least one fan a game I hear bashing Griffey for reasons undeserving. There are so many misconceptions about Griff. The casual fan loves to complain about him yet knows nothing about baseball. My favorite over heard quote at a game ever is "When did Griffey get moved to right?" That was last year, then they proceeded to knock him.
    "The Hall of Fame is there to keep alive the memory of people. You don't need to do that with people like Buck [O'Niel] and Joe [Nuxhall]. Nobody's forgetting those guys."

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  10. #24
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Sigh. Another post suggesting that if you use stats, particularly new ones, you must not appreciate the game, and that if you criticize a player's performance, you must not appreciate his career.

    Perhaps we sometimes get too focused on the argument de jour, but don't for a second think that because I can explain VORP and use phrases like random variation that I don't appreciate Junior and don't appreciate the game on the field.

    Griffey is one of the top 100 players of all time, arguably top 50. He was a joy to watch in the field in the early part of his career and his swing remains a thing of beauty. He's always been a gracious person and by all accounts a great family man. However, he is not a great player anymore, his defense in RF is among the worst in baseball, and he has contributed to the Reds struggles in 2008. Believe it or not, it is possible for us to recognize all of these things at the same time.

    I think what often gets lost on message boards is that people enjoy the game in many ways and that this is reflected in the way in which we talk about it. For some people, there is no differentiation between the objective and the personal. Players are what they do. Griffey was a great player, is a great player, and always will be a great player. Suggesting less would diminish the way in which they appreciate him. I can understand the perspective of the fan who just wants to enjoy the game on the field, to appreciate the accomplishments, and celebrate the athletic achievement.

    But there are also fans who want to enjoy the game behind the game. For me, the joy of baseball isn't limited to what happens between the white lines. I enjoy the business problems of the sport. I enjoy the particulars of roster management, lineup order, and player valuation. I also love the game between the lines. I love watching Jose Reyes run at will. I love watching Ichiro throw darts from the outfield. I love watching Albert Pujols have his way at the plate. I love watching Adam Dunn launch a fastball in to orbit. It all counts.

    What I think happens sometimes is that people take other people's comments through their own lens and don't appreciate the other person's perspective. This happens both ways of course. I talk VORP or OPS, asserting that Junior doesn't belong batting #3 and it offends your better judgement. You ignore Griffey's OPS, focusing on what he means to you and the game, and assert that he's not "the problem", offending my better judgement.

    The reality is that both of us have a right to our perspective. We all have the right to enjoy the game in the way we choose. Having torn up your hamstring doesn't make you more of a fan. It doesn't give you extra weight. You're one person, I'm one person. As for ORG as a separated board, it's there for reason that you illustrate quite clearly. As we struggle as a community to enjoy the Reds both together and in our own ways, one thing that undeniably detracts from this end is name calling and ad hominem attacks. Phrases like "VORP, BABIP, and BLOWBALLS" and "best impersonation of whiny little b*tches" add nothing to the conversation. They merely stir things up and offend people. Permission to post on ORG is predicated on essentially one thing, respect. We're all going to have different views. We're all going to appreciate players, the Reds, and game in different ways. But if we can't do it in a civil manner, the whole thing comes crashing down.

    I understand your frustration, CTT. But after 35 years as a fan, it's time to recognize that your way of being a fan isn't superior to anyone else's. This sort of community can't work unless we all can keep that perspective, myself included.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #25
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Jr. had this to say Tuesday night about the Reds:

    Ken Griffey Jr. had this to say Tuesday night, in thanking the Reds when they honored him for hitting his 600th career home run last week:

    "This is my ninth year here. This is the best team we've had," Griffey said. "My dad won three world championships. With a little luck, we can win one. I'd like to be part of that."
    It really was a nice thing to say about the Reds. I think we should just let him stay the rest of the year in Cincinnati, and allow him to retire as a Cincinnati Red.

  12. #26
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    Re: Philly fans appreciate Jr. Why don't we? (Warning: Rant)

    Great post. Griffey is my favorite player of all time. Call me a hypocrit but my loyalty, however, is to the Cincinnati Reds and for that reason I go to sleep praying that someone will take him and Dunn off our hands in exchange for some halfway decent prospects before we lose them for nothing at season's end. I think this is wishful thinking though with Griffeys lack of production and Dunn's K's and poor fielding giving him a much worse reputation than he deserves. Though I say this with the Reds in mind primarily, I would also like Griff to contend for a title - he deserves it after this amazing career.


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