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Thread: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

  1. #31
    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaRed View Post
    After the Derby I was just a little annoyed by Dutrow, turns out I'm glad Big Brown didn't win the Triple Crown and I'm also glad that Dutrow doesn't get the claim to fame of having trained a Triple Crown winner.
    Maybe Big Brown knew what a jerk Dutrow is and decided to "throw" the race so Dutrow wouldn't have that Triple Crown glory.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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  3. #32
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    How long has NY been allowing Lasix and how easy is it to get a horse qualified in that state for it's use?

    BTW, your avatar looks like Bold Ruler, if he was a little darker.
    I don't know how long Lasix has been legal in NY. It was not allowed for a long time. I'm pretty sure I read that all but one of the horses in this year's Belmont would be on it. TB racing is not my area of expertise. I work on mostly Western performance horses.

    The horse in my avatar is a QH reining horse. He is the sire of a foal I have right now.

  4. #33
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    As the resident equine veterinarian, let me just say, "Bull."

    TB racing in any state is highly regulated. It wasn't always that way, and the reputation still holds.

    A quick education on Winstol. It is a testosterone derivative. It will shortly be a prohibited substance in all jurisdictions. However, that is more of a response the fallout from human PEDs than any medical justification. It has been shown in multiple studies that Winstrol has NO effect on race times.
    Isn’t Winstol a steroid used mostly by trainers with geldings or do I have that mixed up with another? I believe that we used that with one of our geldings back in the day to make them more up on the bit or aggressive as we used the term for it back then. I only know that the use of the steroid seemed to make a behavioral change in the horse, nastier, if one took him out on the lead to graze a bit, but I never saw it effect a race outcome for us.

    As far as Lasix you would be more qualified than I, but, it was my understanding that long ago they would use Lasix to effect the bleeding because a horse would stop if he was bleeding and tasted it, and that old time trainers before testing became so much better as it is today, that trainers would use Lasix to mask other stimulating enhancers, I am asking not telling.

    Could Big Brown have had a need for Lasix or was he already on it.

    When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?

    Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?

  5. #34
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    The trainer was lying about the horse being ready. When asked the direct question before the race, he shot his eyes very quickly to his left before bringing them back to answer the question, a gesture that usually indicates one is lying.
    I do that frequently when I am unsure of myself and the correct answer, it does not necessarily mean that one is lying, they can be uncomfortable or insecure regarding the question and answer and do that with their eyes or body language.

  6. #35
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    There's an explanation, but it may never be discovered.

    I've been involved in harness racing for the better part of my life, so I know a little about horses. The jockey is going to know this more than anyone, but just watching on tv it looked like Brig Brown never look "comfortable" throughout the race. It looked as if he got kicked early, it looked like he wanted to get out of traffic early but couldn't, and towards the end it appeared to me that his ears were perking backwards......which is usually a sign that the horse is either unhappy or hurting. Either way, it's a good indication the horse isn't at it's best form. On top of that ,he was on the outside uncovered for a big part of the race and in the last turn, meaning he is racing a farther distance than the rail horses.
    It may have just been a combination of all of those things. If a horse is unhappy or uncomfortable during a race, he (she) isn't going to give you their best. It's just one of those things that we may never know, simply because Big Brown can't tell us.
    To me that makes sense, especially with the horse cutting the race getting away with slow fractions of the first mile etc. coupled with the other barriers working against Big Brown. As the lead horse opens up after the slow early fractions, then it would give the appearance of that of the rear horses just stopping when actually they could not close against the leader after the early slow fractions.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-11-2008 at 04:39 PM.

  7. #36
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    I don't know how long Lasix has been legal in NY. It was not allowed for a long time. I'm pretty sure I read that all but one of the horses in this year's Belmont would be on it. TB racing is not my area of expertise. I work on mostly Western performance horses.

    The horse in my avatar is a QH reining horse. He is the sire of a foal I have right now.
    What a beautiful horse! He has the look of a Champion.

  8. #37
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    I do that frequently when I am unsure of myself and the correct answer, it does not necessarily mean that one is lying, they can be uncomfortable or insecure regarding the question and answer and do that with their eyes or body language.
    That's true, too. And, when he did it, I was trying in my mind to determine which it was. But, with no personal history with him, I had nothing to compare it to.

    But, taking that particular moment in context, he was asked point blank, "Is Big Brown healthy?". There should have been no insecurity in answering that question. If he was healthy, the response should have been quickly and without the subconscious shifting of the eyes.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 06-11-2008 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #38
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    But, taking that particular moment in context, he was asked point blank, "Is Big Brown healthy?". There should have been no insecurity in answering that question. If he was healthy, the response should have been quickly and without the subconscious shifting of the eyes.
    Yes

  10. #39
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?
    It is very true, particularly in distance races, that a pacesetter wants to be on the lead while preserving as much energy as possible. But the opening mile of the Belmont is always kind of slow, unless the leader's name is Secretariat. Da' Tara ran it in 1:37 and change, which is a touch on the slow side but nothing outrageous, and Big Brown was well positioned entering the far turn. He just didn't fire. Da' Tara plodded home in 52 seconds for the last half-mile, which Big Brown should have obliterated had he been on his game.

    Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?
    I haven't seen that decision criticized, to be honest. He eased the horse at the top of the stretch after the field had already gone by. He'd already asked him to run and got a negative answer, so there was no benefit to pushing him hard down the stretch.
    Not all who wander are lost

  11. #40
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I haven't seen that decision criticized, to be honest. He eased the horse at the top of the stretch after the field had already gone by. He'd already asked him to run and got a negative answer, so there was no benefit to pushing him hard down the stretch.
    Despite what he said to the media, I think Desormeaux probably felt the horse was running injured, and that is why he pulled him up. I think he even stated his goal down the stretch was just to get him to finish safely and without injury. You don't pull a horse up for no reason, Desormeaux isn't stupid and has been around the block a few times. I would applaud such a decision, if it's the case. With the rash of breakdowns in the triple crown races the last few years, it wasn't worth risking another one for a race you've already lost.
    Pessimists are well informed optimists

  12. #41
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    Isnít Winstol a steroid used mostly by trainers with geldings or do I have that mixed up with another? I believe that we used that with one of our geldings back in the day to make them more up on the bit or aggressive as we used the term for it back then. I only know that the use of the steroid seemed to make a behavioral change in the horse, nastier, if one took him out on the lead to graze a bit, but I never saw it effect a race outcome for us.

    As far as Lasix you would be more qualified than I, but, it was my understanding that long ago they would use Lasix to effect the bleeding because a horse would stop if he was bleeding and tasted it, and that old time trainers before testing became so much better as it is today, that trainers would use Lasix to mask other stimulating enhancers, I am asking not telling.

    Could Big Brown have had a need for Lasix or was he already on it.

    When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?

    Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?
    The behavioral changes you noted are the only consistently demonstrated effects of Winstol on healthy horses. It does decrease recovery time for horses who have lost body mass due to injury, illness, or malnutrition.

    The reason horses don't run well when they bleed doesn't have anything to do with tasting blood. With very strenuous excercise, the blood pressure in some horses lungs increases to the point that blood actually leaks into the airways. With the advent of endoscopy and high speed treadmills, it has been discovered that there are many horses who have hemorrhaging into their airways who do not show blood from the nostrils.

    Lasix is a diuretic which decreases the blood pressure within the lungs. I don't know whether Big Brown has always raced on Lasix or if this is a recent thing for him. As I understand it, he was given Lasix for the Belmont.

  13. #42
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Heeler View Post
    The behavioral changes you noted are the only consistently demonstrated effects of Winstol on healthy horses. It does decrease recovery time for horses who have lost body mass due to injury, illness, or malnutrition.

    The reason horses don't run well when they bleed doesn't have anything to do with tasting blood. With very strenuous excercise, the blood pressure in some horses lungs increases to the point that blood actually leaks into the airways. With the advent of endoscopy and high speed treadmills, it has been discovered that there are many horses who have hemorrhaging into their airways who do not show blood from the nostrils.

    Lasix is a diuretic which decreases the blood pressure within the lungs. I don't know whether Big Brown has always raced on Lasix or if this is a recent thing for him. As I understand it, he was given Lasix for the Belmont.
    Thank you for clarifying each point for me, it has been quite a number of years since we had horses, and I had thought that probably much had changed, with various advances.

  14. #43
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    Re: Horse Racing's Triple Crown...

    Dutrow faces ban for horse's positive testby Associated PressUpdated: June 25, 2008, 11:29 AM EST52 comments add this Rick Dutrow, trainer of Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Big Brown, is facing a 15-day suspension by Kentucky racing officials after another horse he trains exceeded the allowable limit for a drug that increases lung capacity.

    Two separate drug tests on 8-year-old gelding Salute the Count revealed the horse had twice the allowable limit of Clenbuterol in his system after finishing second in the Aegon Turf Sprint at Churchill Downs on May 2, said John Veitch, chief steward of the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority.

    Clenbuterol is often used by humans who suffer from asthma. Veitch said use of the drug in horses has grown because it can increase lung capacity. It is considered a Class B drug. Though use of the drug is legal under Kentucky racing guidelines, it cannot be administered 72 hours before a race.

    "It's a respiratory enhancer," Veitch said. "It's become quite popular in racing medication because it's used to train on."

    Dutrow waived his right to a hearing but plans to file a written appeal, which he must do within the next 10 days. There's no timetable on when Dutrow's appeal will be heard, Veitch said.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing...-positive-test


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