It's still a full seasons worth of atbats in the major leagues.Originally Posted by Hondo
It's still a full seasons worth of atbats in the major leagues.
Then there are a whole lot of Taurus drivers in baseball. The last 3 seasons guys who hit .285 with 10 HR, 75 RBI and 150 hits is limited to Chase Utley (three times), Jeff Kent, Jorge Cantu, Robinson cano (twice), Aaron Hill, Brandon Phillips and Freddy Sanchez. It seems like you have a preconceived notion about what an every day second baseman puts up in the stat line that is pretty offbase for what an actual every day second baseman does indeed put up.
Yet Keppinger has done neither...
I am not saying Jeff Keppinger could not start... Physically.
I am saying that he will not produce .324 or .313 over a full grinding season of 150 starts and 600-700 PA's...
The players you mentioned, ok thats fine... Even though there over all numbers were superior to the ones I listed... The Guy, Kepp is a Back up at best... I don't care if you go back in to the early 1970's of stats for people who hit .275-14-61-10steals 28 doubles 3 triples 68 runs - 152 hits and had an ob% of .359 and averaged that over 7 seasons...
Kepp is a back up. Face it.
Yet you will probably go dig up another 6 players who went .275-14-61-10 and list them out...
Is Hariston a Starter? No Keppinger isn't either... He is getting AB's due to injuries and making the most out of them... and I applaud him for it, and I am happy he is helping the Reds... But I am not in the group who think you start or build around Jeff Keppinger...
I wonder, I bet you are one of those guys who doesn't think this team needs to resign Dunn to a LTC...
I think what their saying Hondo is that Keppinger displays a skillset which lends itself to the belief that the #'s aren't a mirage. In other words he's not necc. benefitting from a great deal of luck to make a body of work but skill. And if you agree that his skillset is starter level then he is in fact a starter for some team. And his defense could be acceptable at 2B if/when he learns better positioning to make up for a sizable lack of range, assuming he continues to hit like he has.
I think he could be a solid 2B but I don't quite know if he could be quite to the level of Michael Young's bat, but given his skills it's not out of the range of possibility I would presume. At least in this park or one like it.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
Hairstons record of being as good as he is showing right now isn't long at all. Keppingers is. Big difference.
As for my listing of the stats of 2B with those stats, I am not finding a specific number of guys, I am simply throwing the numbers you suggest into a program and finding guys with at least those numbers. Do you build around Keppinger? I wouldn't build around him, but that certainly doesn't mean he shouldn't be a starter on the team. I wouldn't build around anyone on our team not named Bruce right now, because guys to build around are guys that are untouchable. Maybe add Volquez to that. But that doesn't mean the other guys aren't valuable pieces or every day players.
As for not wanting to resign Dunn.... not that it has anything to do with this topic, but it depends what he wants and his willingness to play first base.
You know what's an awesome debating technique? When somebody makes an argument against you using statistics, and you either don't want to or can't make a retort against those statistics, just keep repeating your main point over and over until the other person gives in and believes you. Works like a charm.
Dude, the statistics don't mean anything in this case... He has no proven track record other than a very small sample size... I did make a "retort", and they are doing the exact thing you say I am doing back to them...
You sir are "priceless"
He's had 389 at bats since joining the Reds. That's not a huge sample size, but a pretty good chunk. And it's not like he's lucked into that .320+ batting average. The guy has kept a contact percentage in Tony Gwynn territory the last two years. If you're saying he's not durable enough to hit like that for a full year, then maybe you're right, but it's becoming hard to deny that Keppinger is one of the better contact hitters in the game right now.He has no proven track record other than a very small sample size
Hondo I am confused by your logic in this debate. It seems to me you have a gruge or a personal bias against Keppinger. Fair enough we all have them in sports.
I think the way you should argue in this debate isn't saying "Keppinger is a backup at best" rather "I don't think Keppinger is a full time player". The logic you use in this debate is that Keppinger isn't a full time player because he hasn't done it before but when give the playing time he has only dispelled this notion.
Keppinger has done nothing but come up to the majors and hit. He has lived up to his minor league numbers and then some. He has done nothing so far in his career to show that he can't handle playing every day.
Not every player on you club is going to be allstar caliber. Is Keppinger the best SS or 3B or 2B in the league? No. However is Keppinger one of the best 8 everyday players the reds have on their current roster? I say yes. Keppinger provides a unique skill set that no one else on the reds does. He is a contact hitter with gap power. He is going to hit line drives and put the ball in play more often than not. He probably won't put up huge RBI numbers but at the same time those RBI guys may not be able to hit with the consistancy that Keppinger has. Give me a guy with a line of 313/.368/.441 and I will gladly put him in the lineup every day.
Holy Thread Hijacking Batman!!!!!
How did a Yonder Alonso thread devolve into this mess?
Last edited by Steve4192; 06-10-2008 at 12:47 PM.
"I don't think Keppinger is a full time player"
Ok, There ya go...
Also, I don't have a personal grudge against Kepp, not at all... As I have stated he is a fine hitter... He is just not all that and a box of rocks.
Alonso was also a backup catcher when he came to UM. I'm sure he would be a disaster in the field but how awesome would his bat be behind the plate?
.280-.285, 10-12 homers, 65-75 RBI, and he is going to have like 150-160 hits... and thats a roll player? I think just about every team would take those stats from thier EVEYDAY middle infielder
So, do you wanna Debate all my Posts?
Doesn't matter. It's a significant enough sample size to make a judgement. The fact that he's done it over 4 years only shows that he's been consistant. That's a good thing. A player that puts those numbers up for one year might be a fluke.
Keppinger hit well in the minors.
He's hit well in the majors.
His major league sample size is significant
He's hit well consistantly over a number of years.
Note that all this is a sharp contrast to, say, Hairston, who's never hit before this year in the majors or the minors, so he can be fairly considered a fluke.
The bottom line is that there's no reason to doubt that Keppinger can hit at about the same clip he hit this year and last year. And not only is there no reason to doubt it, there's no evidence to support the idea that he can't replicate it.
Sorry to say it, but you're thinking in Dusty Baker logic. "Keppinger is a role player, well, just because..."
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