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Thread: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

  1. #181
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I do think Dick Pole is a horrible pitching coach. Always have.
    When have the Reds had a good pitching coach?
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  3. #182
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    9-1 on a sac fly by Uggla.

  4. #183
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    He had a 6 inning 3 run game against the Phils in the 2nd smallest park in the NL last start. That came after the relief appearance.

    He was trending the wrong way as early as his May 12 start against Florida when he surrendered 3 HRs in seven innings; he had a good start vs. CLE (worst offense ever), then turned around and sucked in SD the Fri before the relief appearance.

    Follow his game by game tracker--his ERA has steadily risen since May 12. It could just as easily be the rise in temperature as it is the relief appearance. But the relief appearance makes for a good story wherein Dusty might take some of the blame, which is what everyone wants, so....
    i was looking at the game tracker, when his era was at 3.12 as of may 17th, which was right before his bad outing against the padres. even after the bad outing his era was at 3.5. you said that he was stinking up the place way before his relief outing and my point was that that was not the case. except for a bad outing against the cubs and then the padres, he was not "stinky" in his starts prior to the relief appearance.

  5. #184
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Maybe he was keeping him out there out of respect.......
    Dusty does too much out of respect anyway, so it probably was.
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  6. #185
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    I do think Dick Pole is a horrible pitching coach. Always have.
    You have to be wrong. Greg Maddux said he was great when he was his pitching coach in the 80's.

    Is there a Reds pitcher that is remotely better under Pole's tutelage?

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  7. #186
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    He had a 6 inning 3 run game against the Phils in the 2nd smallest park in the NL last start. That came after the relief appearance.

    He was trending the wrong way as early as his May 12 start against Florida when he surrendered 3 HRs in seven innings; he had a good start vs. CLE (worst offense ever), then turned around and sucked in SD the Fri before the relief appearance.

    Follow his game by game tracker--his ERA has steadily risen since May 12. It could just as easily be the rise in temperature as it is the relief appearance. But the relief appearance makes for a good story wherein Dusty might take some of the blame, which is what everyone wants, so....
    His game log is available HERE.

    Updated info:

    Harang before the relief appearance: 3.50 ERA, 63 Ks in 74 and 2/3 IP. (7.6 K/9)
    Harang in 3 starts since the relief appearance: 9.39 ERA, 8Ks in 15.1 IP. (4.69 K/9)

    His ERA was actually up and down. He had a very strong start right before SD against Cleveland. MAYBE it would have kept trending up(he did indeed get bombed on May 22nd in SD) without the relief appearance. However, if he was getting worn down and becoming less effective, that is why it was even worse to use Fogg before Bray in that SD game, making it necessary to use a starter in relief.

    Also, that mistake was compounded by bringing Harang back on short rest for his next start. He pitched on 2 days rest in relief, and threw 63 pitches. Then he pitched on 3 days rest, and got bombed by the Pirates. Now, it looks to me like he is worn down.

    I think they should a skip a turn for Aaron, and let him regain some sharpness...hopefully.
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  8. #187
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Red in Chicago View Post
    i was looking at the game tracker, when his era was at 3.12 as of may 17th, which was right before his bad outing against the padres. even after the bad outing his era was at 3.5. you said that he was stinking up the place way before his relief outing and my point was that that was not the case. except for a bad outing against the cubs and then the padres, he was not "stinky" in his starts prior to the relief appearance.
    He stunk in two starts prior to the relief appearance--that's reason enough to be skeptical that his two stinky starts post-relief-appearance (today's start and the start against Pittsburgh) might just be a continuation of what was happening starting with the May 12 start against FLA. I'm saying Harang has a month-long crap spell every season, and he does. This is nothing new.

  9. #188
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Volquez and Cueto looked like they have developed pretty good with Pole.

    Try to give more of the blame/credit to the actual person who is throwing the ball.

    Larry Shepard was a pretty good pitching coach until 1977.

  10. #189
    Member redsrule2500's Avatar
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    2 hits all day for Cincy. Wow.
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  11. #190
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    #2 = better than average. Hence, Harang is better than average. Not seeing your point. And certainly not seeing why that's nuts.
    My point is simply this: his Krate is significantly above average for an NL starter. His BBrate is significantly better than average for a starter (about a walk per 9 innings lower). His HR/9 is exactly average for an NL starter (so no he isn't spreading ick anywhere and he isn't a homerun machine). His fastball velocity is averaging essentially the same this year as it's been last year and basically his whole major league career (so no you're not seeing a drop in velocity).
    "This isnt stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #191
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    My point is simply this: his Krate is significantly above average for an NL starter. His BBrate is significantly better than average for a starter (about a walk per 9 innings lower). His HR/9 is exactly average for an NL starter (so no he isn't spreading ick anywhere and he isn't a homerun machine). His fastball velocity is averaging essentially the same this year as it's been last year and basically his whole major league career (so no you're not seeing a drop in velocity).
    If his HR/9 were better than average? #1 starter. That's perfectly rational. You were looking for a bone to pick, but it turns out there was no bone and I was making a perfectly rational point.

    His FB velocity has been fluctuating this season--maybe I should have said that.

  13. #192
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    yay pattersons in the game!!!!
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  14. #193
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Quote Originally Posted by redsrule2500 View Post
    When have the Reds had a good pitching coach?
    I really liked the great late Vern Ruhle. Obviously, nothing you can do about that, bue he was great.

    Pole maybe was good in the 80s/early 90s, but since, not so much.

  15. #194
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    Harang is likely part of that argument of Ace vs #1

    Aaron is a #1, he's probably not an Ace though.

    I still like him and want him on this team.

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  16. #195
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    Re: Reds @ Fish 6/8/08

    CPatt back on track.

    Kidding.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
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