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Thread: What's Wrong

  1. #46
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.
    This team was bad before Dusty and will be bad after he leaves.

    There is no plan, and it starts at the top. The owner wants to "WIN NOW!!!!!!!!" and quits on any GM who doesn't bring him instant gratification. The GMs have not been all that good, but what can you do when you are a small market and your crazy owner is demanding that you win THIS YEAR? I guess you sign a "name" manager and then just randomly sign the best pitcher you can afford, then pray it somehow works out.

    If you have a bad April, though, you will be fired, so instead of playing the great rookie who dominated AAA but had a rough spring, you sign a veteran CF because, again, you don't have time to let any young players develop.

    Also, the public face of your team whines and complains about every young hitter that doesn't hit .500, so that makes it even harder to rebuild. Oh, he also hates your best offensive player for some reason, and the fans do to. So he will probably be gone after this year, as will your veteran star player. Sounds like a great time to rebuild! But, of course, you now have an old closer making $10+ million a year and an overpaid manager who prefers to manage veterans. Sounds awesome.

    No plan in the owner's booth, the GM's office or in the manager's head ultimately leads to no plan at the plate.

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  3. #47
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringfieldFan View Post
    These are the positive and constructive occurrences with the Reds that we see and appreciate that are in existence and have become a sign that the team is moving forward and should continue too with Jocketty making better choices, decisions, adjustments and adaptations on top of the foundation that has been given to his trust.

    The two sided vision from one to the other exposed by the fans have a coexistence and is to be expected. One the growth and promising development of a very good team in the making, the other residue from the old and defeated that has yet to be dealt with but is in the works to be renovated with future upgrades when timing has opened, lent itself for Jocketty to do so.

    In the meantime the management, coaches and players need to be seen doing what has been empowered in them to do, they should be making the adjustments and corrections that are within their abilities and powers to do now forward until Jocketty can have the opportunity to make the necessary changes to take the team above and beyond inconsistencies that lead to, simply put, that have led them to losing more games than they win
    .
    How one appreciates and views Dunn, Volquez, Harang, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Phillips and Keppinger is as real and valid as how one, who passionately questions how long are they, the Reds, willing to accept on the job training from a Belisle, Bailey, Encarncion, Coffey, and when can one expect the Reds to distance themselves from that which needs to be extracted from the mediocrity or below as routinely witnessed from an underachieving group such as Fogg, Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Bako, Freel, Hopper, and Majewski remodeling the memory of seven long years of their predecessors.

    There are two very distinct sides to this team, both of which are a part that makes it presence known. Two that are in conflict with achieving the goals of a better team. The more weightier being that part which concludes with results that are stated within the win, loss column becoming a continuous history. One group of fans rightly believes that the scales need to be tipped in the favor of win, the other side rightly expresses a desire and belief that the scales are being tipped in the favor of win. How can we not agree with both and naturally we will be seen at various times voicing both sides at a time, one is the sour, one is the sweet and we believe that the sour will be dealt with, it is just that some of us believe that even though there are some things that the Reds cannot do anything about at this time, that the Reds need to be doing now, what they can do.

    The Reds surely run both hot and cold in their present state as the quote below perceives within their fans who follow them in response to their journey on the playing field.
    My problem with the current version of the reds isn't necessarily the losing rather it is the way they have gone about losing. Its that the Reds didn't take advantage of the situation they were put in. You can say "well over the course of 162 games you will have one or two that just get away from you" but the Reds forgot to show up just this past Sunday in Florida.

    Everytime the Cards come into Cincy it seems as if they outplay them. They play more sound and better baseball than the reds. They seem to be doing everything right while the Reds are just going through the motions. The Reds and the Cards offenses were in the same boat last night. They both were facing a young pitcher with control issues. The Cards made an effort to work the count while the Reds went up there hacking. True it is only one game but it shows me a lack of being able to adapt. Boggs threw almost half his pitches for balls yet the Reds were only able to muster 4 H and 3BB. This wasn't like the game a few weeks ago where they hit everything hard right at people they didn't hit many balls hard.

    I can live with errors and I can live with mistakes from the rookies. What irritates me to no end are the errors and defensive miscues that continue to happen with Edwin. The poor plate appearances that plague the vets. I can live with Jay Bruce swinging at first pitches because its part of his development. I also can live with Bruce swinging at those pitches because he has a purpose with that swing. What I hate are the swings that we too often see that are early in the count that the batter has no chance of hitting. I can't live with batters swinging away at the first pitch they see when the pitcher is having control problems. I can live with Homer having a bad outing but hate the defensive miscues that lead to those big innings. I can live with the losing and development of player but teach them to do it the right way. If you don't know what the right way is, watch the Cards they will show you.

  4. #48
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    While we have some young talent at the ML level, we aren't very deep. With 13 pending FAs (I think that's right), there's going to be a lot of holes to fill this winter.
    That's not really a concern to me. Of those 13 we had going into the season, it basically breaks down like this:

    1) Guys who are already gone
    2) Guys you'll probably be happy to see leave
    3) Adam Dunn

    Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.
    Not all who wander are lost

  5. #49
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.
    too bad he doesn't have the equivalent of Edmonds, Pujols and Rolen to fill in around. 4-5 years ago all three were at the top of their position both offensively and defensively.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  6. #50
    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer85 View Post
    too bad he doesn't have the equivalent of Edmonds, Pujols and Rolen to fill in around. 4-5 years ago all three were at the top of their position both offensively and defensively.
    So, would most of the National League.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  7. #51
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    This team was bad before Dusty and will be bad after he leaves.

    There is no plan, and it starts at the top. The owner wants to "WIN NOW!!!!!!!!" and quits on any GM who doesn't bring him instant gratification. The GMs have not been all that good, but what can you do when you are a small market and your crazy owner is demanding that you win THIS YEAR? I guess you sign a "name" manager and then just randomly sign the best pitcher you can afford, then pray it somehow works out.

    If you have a bad April, though, you will be fired, so instead of playing the great rookie who dominated AAA but had a rough spring, you sign a veteran CF because, again, you don't have time to let any young players develop.

    Also, the public face of your team whines and complains about every young hitter that doesn't hit .500, so that makes it even harder to rebuild. Oh, he also hates your best offensive player for some reason, and the fans do to. So he will probably be gone after this year, as will your veteran star player. Sounds like a great time to rebuild! But, of course, you now have an old closer making $10+ million a year and an overpaid manager who prefers to manage veterans. Sounds awesome.

    No plan in the owner's booth, the GM's office or in the manager's head ultimately leads to no plan at the plate.
    I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

    Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

    He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  8. #52
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

    Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

    He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.
    Outstanding. Yes.

  9. #53
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    The Reds will never be good with Ray Knight as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Jack McKeon as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Bob Boone as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Dave Miley as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Jerry Narron as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Dusty Baker as the manager.

  10. #54
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Who are the 13 free agents? For some reason, outside of Dunn and Griffey I don't think any of them are any part of this teams future.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  11. #55
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    That's not really a concern to me. Of those 13 we had going into the season, it basically breaks down like this:

    1) Guys who are already gone
    2) Guys you'll probably be happy to see leave
    3) Adam Dunn

    Those spots still have to be filled, of course. Jocketty seemed to do well scrounging for complementary players in St. Louis and he'll have plenty of opportunity to do so here.
    Exactly what I am thinking as well. This team HAS a direction. It's getting young, and getting young in a hurry.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  12. #56
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    The Reds will never be good with Ray Knight as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Jack McKeon as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Bob Boone as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Dave Miley as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Jerry Narron as the manager.
    The Reds will never be good with Dusty Baker as the manager.

    1/6 - 0.166666666667 percentage isnít good.
    You were almost right, that Jack Mckeon got you.

  13. #57
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I should have clarified. This is not a great team. This is not a team with the talent to win the division. But we have the talent to be above .500. I took the point of this thread not to be an examination of why we aren't on pace for 90 wins, but rather why we don't seem to be playing up to our potential. And I place blame for that on Dusty.

    Baker has taken the talent he was given and failed to get the best out of them. He's made poor tactical decisions in game and has set up the lineup in a very inefficient manner. On balance, he's handled the pitching staff fairly well (though worse, lately, particularly with the starters). Meanwhile, he's deflected blame everywhere but on himself and failed to take account of what's actually causing us to lose games. His solutions are predicated on assumptions founded in his experience as a player rather than in the realities of run production and prevention.

    He is miscast as a strategic and tactical decision maker and we're paying the price for it on the field.
    Come on RMR. Look I understand you do not like Dusty as the Reds manager. I can see the reasons you don't, fair enough. Dusty pretty much disregards the sabermetric aspect of the game. Like it or not that is always the way he has been. He is the first manager since Davy Johnson who has had a track record of success.

    The only problem that I have had with Dusty is his batting Patterson in the leadoff roll. Actually the problem I have with Dusty is that he forced Wayne to go out and get Patterson. Other than that Dusty has done nothing blatantly horriable as a manager. I don't mind so much his double switches because he is attempting to put his batting lineup in the best order to be successful. His handling of the rotation has been pretty good so far.

    Dusty isn't the reason Jr wasn't hitting earlier in the year. Dusty isn't the reason Edwin can't hit or field so far this year. Dusty isn't the reason that Votto, Bruce, and Cueto are all rookies getting their first extended playing time in the bigs. Dusty isn't the reason Belisle, Fogg, and Coffey have pitched awful. And Dusty isn't the reason Harang gets little to no run support every time he takes the mound.

  14. #58
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    Re: What's Wrong

    I want to be clear that I think Dusty is possibly the worst manager in baseball right now. And I thought the same thing when he managed the Cubs, and if you had asked me who the worst possible hire for the Reds would have been, I would have said Dusty Baker.

    That said, he has cost them a few games at most. If he gets back to his old habits as far as pitch counts - and Cueto's have been going up - then and only then will he actually start affirmatively ruining the team in a significant way.

    I think Dusty is a symptom of an organization with no direction and purpose - not a cause of this team's struggles.
    Last edited by top6; 06-11-2008 at 06:27 PM.

  15. #59
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Dusty pretty much disregards the sabermetric aspect of the game.
    I don't think you need to be a sabermetric guy to criticize Dusty, unless you define sabermetrics as saying "it is possible to examine a player's past performance and to use that past performance to make some prediction about how he is likely to perform in the future." (Which very well may be how Dusty defines it.)

  16. #60
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    I want to be clear that I think Dusty is possibly the worst manager in baseball right now.
    Somewhere John McLaren is breathing a sigh of relief....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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