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Thread: What's Wrong

  1. #1
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    What's Wrong

    Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?

    Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions. It didn't help that the manager started a rookie at SS and batted him second, but it didn't matter. I've never seen more uninspired at-bats or horrible pitching performances.

    Homer was bad. No fastball and nothing else to go along with it. He's a kid, but the opposing pitcher was too and he seemed to pitch a more consistent game. LIncoln looked good, but Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run. In the meantime, the Cardinal relievers pitched 4 innings of 1-hit ball.

    Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw. Dunn walked twice, and why not? Why give him anything to hit when you can get everyone else out. Votto homered, but little else. Bako is Bako. The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

    For many, this is a good team, but I disagree. First base has promise, but second base worries me. Phillips is so impatient and streaky, he can't be counted upon. Short is a question mark, and despite Edwin's good hitting night, he as inconsistent as Phillips with less punch.

    The outfield is a mish-mash of flawed characters. Dunn is maybe the best player, but is batted so low in the order it's easy to not give him anything to hit. Bruce is a rookie, and despite his fast start (which is now getting less fast as games go on which is to be expected), he is what he is--learning. Junior is still productive, but why pitch to Griffey if you can get Phillips and Edwin out easily enough?

    Catcher is just a train wreck. I like Paul Bako as a backup, but why 3 catchers and why two guys who can't hit (really, do you think Valentin is a good hitter?) and the same two are not light out fielders.

    I won't go into pitching becaue it shows promise.

    It's the same train wreck we've seen for the last 8 years. I really believe it's time to "blow it up" all the way, and I love most of the guys I mentioned above. It's time.
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  3. #2
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Janish, Hererra, Bray all on the roster. Phillips and EE are still in their mid 20s, and there is no sign that this team is bring Junior and Dunn back. I think we are in the process of blowing it up...
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  4. #3
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Janish, Hererra, Bray all on the roster. Phillips and EE are still in their mid 20s, and there is no sign that this team is bring Junior and Dunn back. I think we are in the process of blowing it up...
    Hope you're right. Nothing would please me more.
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    This one's for you Edd Heath's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    What's wrong is that it's baseball. They could go out and take the series away from the Cards the next two nights.

    It's baseball, a marathon, not a sprint. Go get'em tommorrow.
    Some people play baseball. Baseball plays Jay Bruce.

  6. #5
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions.
    Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.

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    Re: What's Wrong

    Really? This is the most talented Reds team I have seen in awhile, but the problem is whatever you want to call it: Bad Luck?Inconsistency. When the pitching is on, the hitting is off. When the hitting is on, the pitching is off. When two guys are hot, everyone else is ice cold. Almost everyone on this team are streak guys. We need consistent guys like Kepp and Volquez.
    Domo Arigato, Here Comes Joey Votto

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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.

    I agree that coming off a long road trip and playing the next night may have had an impact.

    Also consider that Hairston was out and Janish replaced him. Big offensive drop off. Hairston has been the key tablesetter the last few weeks. No Hairston, no Keppinger.

    Phillips is in a slump. He is not an ideal cleanup hitter and is much more effective against lefties. Still, overall he had very good numbers last year. Maybe he's developed some bad habits, maybe he needs a game off, maybe he needs an adjustment. But I think he will start hitting again. He's a good player.

    On top of all of this, the Reds threw Bailey tonight and he may just not be ready yet. He didn't do that well over this last several AAA outings. He's still working things out and, for whatever reason, his velocity appears off right now.

    The team is definitely in transition and there will be rough spots. Still, you have to like the young talent and Jocketty hasn't really begun to make important changes.

  9. #8
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by 11larkin11 View Post
    Really? This is the most talented Reds team I have seen in awhile, but the problem is whatever you want to call it: Bad Luck?Inconsistency. When the pitching is on, the hitting is off. When the hitting is on, the pitching is off. When two guys are hot, everyone else is ice cold. Almost everyone on this team are streak guys. We need consistent guys like Kepp and Volquez.
    As my late Dad used to say..."a team with talent is not a winning team unless the talent works together." And that is where we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by west of you
    Their plane landed at 3am that morning, that has to play in to the fact that they "looked" like they were going through the motions... but seriously most picked them to linger about where they are either 4 down from .500 or 4 up... looks like a .500 team without a MLB SS to me.
    Bingo! But I would add without a MLB catcher too. And bullpen (and it's much better which makes you wonder how we got through those other years).
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  10. #9
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?
    I selectively picked out some post that I think are excellent points and that fits well with what we witness throughout various games and fits this thread and your questions.

    I believe that I have them in the order that came as the game transpired.

    To me it may be a small sample of just one game, yet it is also a micro of the macro, a biopsy of the core, that we see with the various problem parts that make up the whole, and these guys write and say it best in my opinion as the live game plays out.

    These are not just some frustrated fans, there is too much truth in their observations for it to be boilerplate and bluster, and of course we each have witnessed much of what they have aptly processed through time spaced intervals of observations, research, wise value and comparison judgments and opined a reflection for our consumption.

    I think that each of the posters do well in pointing out problem areas through their protests, challenges and objections that point out parts to the whole that have needed addressed and still do. From offense to coaching, management style and player resource utilization, to pitching, tonight the position defense escaped.

    The Game Begins
    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    We're facing a RHP who has never pitched in the majors, nor experienced much minor league success until this year. His success this year has been based largely on unsustainably low hit and HR rate. Also, the Cardinals have one LOOGY in their pen, Ron Villone.

    So basically, we're giving Paul Janish more at bats than Adam Dunn or JOey Votto, because we're afraid that in a late game situation, Ron Villone will be brought in and we'd rather have the light hitting SS with a .741 minor league OPS and 25 major league at bats at the plate over either of our .900+ OPS corner bats. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Good thinking Dusty.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    C'mon, that's not true. Sometimes you'll get get a grounder to 2B. Phillips seems to have adopted the approach that he's a power hitter. He'd be a lot better off swinging like he was a 15 HR guy. Just ask Chase Utley -- or Joey Votto for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    It should be interesting with Bruce leading off, but Janish in the 2-hole? That strikes me as really strange. It's like "if you play shortstop, you bat second" regardless of ability. But what do I know?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    All these kudos to the Cards are great and I disliked Bailey's performance as much as anyone.

    But the Reds consistently fail to score runs against new pitchers and back of the rotation pitchers.

    Early this year it seemed like the team was facing aces every day. The year started against Webb and Haren. Followed by other star pitchers. Reds had some problems with them.

    But there is no excuse for a major league team to be flailing against the AA guy at Florida and now this guy Boggs, among others. Yes, Hairston and Kepp were both lost, but other teams have injuries too.

    If the Reds can't hit Mitchell Boggs and Ryan Tucker and Phil Dumatrait, they are going no place. Fast.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    One of the best hopes of this team producing anything approaching consistent offense the remainder of this season is getting Keppinger back soon, and pairing him with Bruce atop the order *everyday* from that point forward. A few OBP machine tabble setters will do wonders for the 3-6 portions of the lineup (and if we could only get Dunn moved to #3 in the process, we might actually be in business).
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgojunior View Post
    Phillips looks lost up there lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Year in and year out, the St. Louis Cardinals are the best managed and best coached (two very different concepts) team in the National League. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get more out of less than Tony's staff, regardless of how much I dislike that franchise…
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Giving away outs with the top of your order, while trailing by 3 runs in the 5th inning... have to love the self-defeatism that is Dustyball. Meanwhile, the major run scoring in this game has resulted from big blast(s) following *walks*. But, by all means, throw some more Outs away while trailing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    So true. From the time they milked months of 1100OPS baseball from a 36 year old Will Clark standing in for an injured McGwire in 2000 en route to the division crown... this team has found ways to coerce career best production from every cast-off, has-been, and never-was you can shake a stick at. It's simply amazing to behold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommyjohn25 View Post
    Okay...this is getting out of hand. What is the problem with Bailey? I don't get it. How do you just lose 5-7 mph off your fastball at age 22?
    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Homer has absolutely no command at all. He lets go of the pitch and has no idea where it's going to go. Add to that very average stuff and you have an ineffective pitcher.

    Admittedly, I've only seen Homer pitch on TV, but I've never seen this electric stuff he's supposed to have. Not once.
    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    It has nothing to do with him having a bad attitude, bad work ethic, whatever right now.

    He just has no stuff. He has a high 80's, low 90's fastball, an above average change up, and a curve ball he can't locate.

    I have no idea what happend to his fastball.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    When you can't locate an 88 mph straight fastball to the #9 batter, you've got problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    I'm not making excuses for Homer, but they did ask him to change some things in his mechanics/delivery IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    And it doesn't help his cause that the Reds wouldn't know pitching development if they fell over it.

    But something is definaltey way out of wack with the young lad tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Which again gets to my point.

    Plenty of other teams find a way to mine what they can from both golden arms and so-so arms. Would Coffey or Elizardo Rameriz do better under the toutlage of Dave Duncan? Would Ryan Wagner have blossemed in the Atlanta farm system?

    Maybe, maybe not.

    But if you want to argue that the Reds have done a pretty decent job finding and developing pitching tallent based on the very early returns of one pitcher be my guest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    This game was over the second they pencilled in Bailey's name.

    He's not a major league starting pitcher right now. And if he ever is it will have to be with a wholly different approach; no way in hell he becomes a bulldozing high-K pitcher with the stuff he possesses. If he sticks in the majors, he will have made a sea change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    You should include phrases like 'mentally tough', 'proficiency' and 'sound execution' to that description (even though I think Hairston's contributions are a blip on the radar screen, and somewhat irrelevant to the big picture). Virtually every year, regardless of the talent level of the cast and crew, the Cardinals coax exceptionally proficient and professional plate appearances out of their personnel. They pretty much execute in every aspect of the game, and as a result they exceed expectations, and their sum is greater than the parts therein.

    By contrast, the mentally enervated Reds' team usually displays a production and consistency that greatly underperforms the sum of it's individual talents. It's yet another reason why the tactically flawed and plate discipline bereft Dusty Baker was a terrible fit for this squad
    .
    The Game Ends Here.

    These comments and reflections for me have a universal truth to too many of the Reds games, offensive players, defensive players and pitchers. The sheer repetiveness of the problem areas make it all to transparent for all to see except the management of this team and organization.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-11-2008 at 01:12 AM.

  11. #10
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Thanks, SF. I avoid the game threads anymore though I do step in a couple of times a game. And if Stormy is posting again, I'll try to make it more often.

    Really, is thee a better poster with more insight than Stormy (Red Storm to an old timer like me)? He just seems to capture the essence of the game and is usually spot on.

    I just don't see a cohesive club here? Our "franchise player" at 2nd is on and off. We have no reliable MLB shortstop. Our third baseman shows lack of judgment. Our outfield is disfunctional. The catching position is a total mess. Three fair to midding starters (Harang is excelllent most of the time, Arroyo is on and off and Volquez is the real deal), a kid and a prayer to round out the starters won't get it. The bullpen is based on a few retreads and a $46 million closer who closes so rarely that he gets rusty.

    The young core is encouraging, but the rest is fodder. You can build around Votto, Phillips (provided he can be coached to be more patient), Bruce and Dunn, but you can't deny that our catching corps is way below average and we desparately need Keppinger back for offense and middling defense (I can take offense and middling defense before I can take no offense and middling defense).

    I am souring on Dustyball because it seems he just is so stuck with things that don't work (his pairing of Hariston and Bruce at the top of the lineup was good, but putting Janish in the 2 hole was just ludicrous). I have high hopes that Jocketty will make the moves we need, but I'm growing impatient, which is a virtue seldom seen in a woman but never in an old man...
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  12. #11
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    Thanks, SF. I avoid the game threads anymore though I do step in a couple of times a game. And if Stormy is posting again, I'll try to make it more often.

    Really, is thee a better poster with more insight than Stormy (Red Storm to an old timer like me)? He just seems to capture the essence of the game and is usually spot on.

    I just don't see a cohesive club here? Our "franchise player" at 2nd is on and off. We have no reliable MLB shortstop. Our third baseman shows lack of judgment. Our outfield is disfunctional. The catching position is a total mess. Three fair to midding starters (Harang is excelllent most of the time, Arroyo is on and off and Volquez is the real deal), a kid and a prayer to round out the starters won't get it. The bullpen is based on a few retreads and a $46 million closer who closes so rarely that he gets rusty.

    The young core is encouraging, but the rest is fodder. You can build around Votto, Phillips (provided he can be coached to be more patient), Bruce and Dunn, but you can't deny that our catching corps is way below average and we desparately need Keppinger back for offense and middling defense (I can take offense and middling defense before I can take no offense and middling defense).

    I am souring on Dustyball because it seems he just is so stuck with things that don't work (his pairing of Hariston and Bruce at the top of the lineup was good, but putting Janish in the 2 hole was just ludicrous). I have high hopes that Jocketty will make the moves we need, but I'm growing impatient, which is a virtue seldom seen in a woman but never in an old man...
    I only object to your use of the word patient, (I know you speak of the players here)(yet we fans have been asked to be patient so much I am conditioned to respond without thinking) when each of us have been waiting for over seven years, patient seems inappropriate to me anymore, after years and years of waiting, and if we were completely open we could say we have been patiently waiting since November of 1990, 18 years. We have been patient, it is past time for management to deliver the product.

    I can be patient with children, adults who don’t know or understand something, I can be patient waiting for Christmas, I refuse to be patient with management, any management who mismanage people and resources, and then expect other’s or their patrons to be patient while funding and paying for that managements mistakes, year after year, even if management is transferring from group to group.

    I honestly thought that they, the posters above were speaking volumes and communicating the deeper realities about this club and had genuine insights to this baseball teams various malady’s and how those play together to make up the whole as with this team, it is not just one problem or fix, which it takes a group to communicate of its problems and needs.

    To me as I read them it was as if they were painting a very big picture, and I thought how true, and how often we see this even though the positions, portions and names change. I hope no one minds that I posted those, I just thought that they combined to say it so well.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-11-2008 at 01:48 AM.

  13. #12
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    As my late Dad used to say..."a team with talent is not a winning team unless the talent works together." And that is where we are.
    That's the nail on the head right there! Your father was a very bright man WVRF, but you already knew that.


    "The way a team plays as a whole determines its success. You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club won't be worth a dime."

    Babe Ruth
    Also let me add teamwork or not reflects your leadership, which we lack on the field.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 06-11-2008 at 01:51 AM.
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    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Good stuff, SF.

    Tonight, the Cardinals came into a plan against Bailey. They knew he loved throwing first pitch fastballs to try to get ahead in the count, and because of that you saw a lot of first pitch swinging. The first time thru the order, that really didn't work very well. However, it became clear Homer wasn't getting anything over but his fastball (which wasn't that good to begin with), and they changed their gameplan and sat on his fastball. And obviously, it worked.

    Now flip to the Reds. First inning against a pitcher making his first career start. Bruce with a good AB as a leadoff hitter working a 3-2 count before grounding out. Janish comes up and walks on four pitches. Griffey comes up, and walks on 4 pitches. Phillips comes up, and the first pitch is a ball. So Boggs has thrown 9 straight balls, and 12 of his first 15 pitches are balls. I'm all for looking for something to rip, but Phillips goes up there and swings at a pitch that is a borderline pitch at best and flies out to RF. While it was only one AB, the AB kind of set the tone for the game.

    Fast forward to either the 6th or 7th inning. 1st and 2nd 1 out with Paul Bako up in a 5-2 game. He works himself into a really good 2-0 hitters count. What does he do? Hits a check swing grounder to SS that ends up a force out.

    Now go the 9th, Reds are down by 5. Edwin Encarnacion up with a 3-1 count. You need baserunners. He gets a high fastball that would have been ball 4, but instead he's trying to blast one into the 2nd deck and swings and misses. Next pitch, called strike 3 at the knees.

    I don't know if it's the players, manager, or both, but this team sometimes seems like it's going without a plan. Granted, these are individual ABs, but it's still a team sport. Rarely do you see Reds hitters, as a team, have a plan. Phillps is going to be Phillips and hack. Dunn is going to work the count and normally either K, walk, or go yard. EE if he's on will hit and if he's not he'll pop up early in the count.

    It's rare where you see the Reds as a team do what the Cardinals did tonight. Baseball is a team sport, and very rarely do the Reds make each other better.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Good stuff, SF.

    Tonight, the Cardinals came into a plan against Bailey. They knew he loved throwing first pitch fastballs to try to get ahead in the count, and because of that you saw a lot of first pitch swinging. The first time thru the order, that really didn't work very well. However, it became clear Homer wasn't getting anything over but his fastball (which wasn't that good to begin with), and they changed their gameplan and sat on his fastball. And obviously, it worked.

    Now flip to the Reds. First inning against a pitcher making his first career start. Bruce with a good AB as a leadoff hitter working a 3-2 count before grounding out. Janish comes up and walks on four pitches. Griffey comes up, and walks on 4 pitches. Phillips comes up, and the first pitch is a ball. So Boggs has thrown 9 straight balls, and 12 of his first 15 pitches are balls. I'm all for looking for something to rip, but Phillips goes up there and swings at a pitch that is a borderline pitch at best and flies out to RF. While it was only one AB, the AB kind of set the tone for the game.

    Fast forward to either the 6th or 7th inning. 1st and 2nd 1 out with Paul Bako up in a 5-2 game. He works himself into a really good 2-0 hitters count. What does he do? Hits a check swing grounder to SS that ends up a force out.

    Now go the 9th, Reds are down by 5. Edwin Encarnacion up with a 3-1 count. You need baserunners. He gets a high fastball that would have been ball 4, but instead he's trying to blast one into the 2nd deck and swings and misses. Next pitch, called strike 3 at the knees.

    I don't know if it's the players, manager, or both, but this team sometimes seems like it's going without a plan. Granted, these are individual ABs, but it's still a team sport. Rarely do you see Reds hitters, as a team, have a plan. Phillps is going to be Phillips and hack. Dunn is going to work the count and normally either K, walk, or go yard. EE if he's on will hit and if he's not he'll pop up early in the count.

    It's rare where you see the Reds as a team do what the Cardinals did tonight. Baseball is a team sport, and very rarely do the Reds make each other better.
    Good post and I agree with it all. To my mind it's simple the whole organization needs a reality check, sans maybe Jocketty who I don't yet know enough about to form an opinion on.

    BobC has made a few really poor recent decisions. Krivsky shouldn't have been let go at least until the end of the season and Baker was a poor match for this team (and really for any team). Krivsky had made some major mistakes in hiring coaches/scouts perhaps as well (although I blame Dusty on BC, no matter what the word is). I say perhaps because I am assuming that one of our major flaws is advanced scouting. He also did have some poor roster construction as well.

    The major league instruction is lame (and really has been for many years) pretty much all the way around. Either that or the players don't listen which I find pretty likely as well (probably a lot of both). And we really don't have any respectable vocal leaders on the field to speak of.

    The bottom line is everyone needs to be on the same page but are not and that's obvious because if they were it wouldn't look like this out there. Hopefully Jocketty is the guy who can pull it all together, if not it will be more of the same for the next 3+ years. I know some might see this as throwing in the proverbial towel but it's not, we have a bright future if we can find someone to lead us down the right path.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  16. #15
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    What's wrong?

    I don't think anything is wrong. Going into the season the Reds roster looked like .500 talent that was roughly 9 games worse than the Cubs. In other words, they needed everything to go right for them to be serious contenders (with a little help from their friends too). Their April pretty much shot down their chances to contend barring injury to the front runners and as a whole they've gotten everything to go right with some guys and not so much with other guys.

    Basically, they're about where they should be I think.

    The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.
    Last edited by jojo; 06-11-2008 at 06:22 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner


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