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Thread: What's Wrong

  1. #76
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Just "add" it? It's that simple?
    We just need to go shopping
    Go Gators!

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  3. #77
    Member Stormy's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    What's wrong? Our Owner compelled our former General Manager to shelve the rebuilding process multiple times, in favor of completely futile and absurdly timed bids to immediately contend. Our owner hired a dreadfully miscast 'win now' name manager, and prematurely removed our GM a month into a new season, both by virtue of the assertion that he intends to win immediately.

    How does he now go about spinning the concept of a returning to a rebuilding phase, given his obtuse bluster about winning now, without any regard for the facts on the ground? How do you go about enacting that rebuild with a Dusty Baker presiding, and a GM in Jocketty who is more accustomed to putting contenders over the top than in redesigning last place teams whose future core is mostly below 26 years of age? How do we know that the Owner can stay out of the way long enough for any renovations to take place, even if the aforementioned leadership can start moving the roster in the right direction?

    This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

    The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.
    Last edited by Stormy; 06-11-2008 at 11:45 PM.

  4. #78
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    This team is already 150 runs behind where they need to be to win. But people want to subtract Dunn while still finding a window to compete in 2009-11.

    Good luck with that.
    Playing devil's advocate for a second... paying Dunn more money next year for likely the same production doesn't advance the team forward an inch. That's just maintaining status quo at best.

    There is a good chance the team could be worse, if that money (whatever the number is) is spent on less productive players.

    But, if you have any faith in Jocketty as a GM, you have to at least allow the possibility that he can find a more productive (or, if you prefer Moneyball lingo, efficient) way to spend that dough, even if it's not contained in a single transaction. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but I have a feeling he's going to try.
    Not all who wander are lost

  5. #79
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Remember the 2005 Reds. You know, the bunch that scored 820 runs? What's the difference?

    Well, the 2005 Reds scored a lot of runs, but the pitchers gave up a lot of runs. they averaged scoring over 5 runs a game, but gave up about 5.5 runs a game. They won 75 games.

    As I mentioned in tonight's game thread, the Reds are on track to score 725 runs this year. The pitching's better by nearly a run a game, but the Reds are scoring less. The result is the same. They are on track to win 75 games.

    Look at the two lineups showing hits, avg., and OBP. I multiplied the 2008 stats by 2.41 to show a full season:

    Code:
    2005                                        2008
    1B - Casey - 165H .312 .371        1B - Votto - 137H 27 HR .275 .349
    2B - Aurila -  120H .282 .338        2B - Phillips -166H 29HR  .268 .315
    3B - Randa-  96H   .289 .356        3B - EdE    - 130H 24HR  .241 .327
    SS - Lopez - 169H  .291 .352        SS - Kepp - 119H   8HR  .324 .373
    LF - Dunn  -  134H  .247 .387        LF - Dunn - 110H  39HR  .235 .405
    CF - Junior -  148H  .304 .369       CF - Bruce - 164H  21HR  .387 .479
    RF - Kearns-   93H   .240 .333       RF - Junior - 140H  17HR  .258 .363
    C  - LaRue -   93H   .260 .355        C  - Bako  - 122H  17HR  .238 .320
    The difference can be seen at first base (though I think Votto will surpass Casey soon), LF (Dunn is just not having a very good year), SS (Lopez had a monster year, but Keppinger could too without the punch), and C (before the fall of Larue, he was a pretty good hitter).

    For this team to finish above .500, Dunn, Griffey, Edwin, and the catching position must start hitting the ball. If we could combine 2005's hitting with 2008's pitching, well, then we'd have something.
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  6. #80
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    What's wrong? Our Owner compelled our former General Manager to shelve the rebuilding process multiple times, in favor of completely futile and absurdly timed bids to immediately contend. Our owner hired a dreadfully miscast 'win now' name manager, and prematurely removed our GM a month into a new season, both by virtue of the assertion that he intends to win immediately.

    How does he now go about spinning the concept of a returning to a rebuilding phase, given his obtuse bluster about winning now, without any regard for the facts on the ground? How do you go about enacting that rebuild with a Dusty Baker presiding, and a GM in Jocketty who is more accustomed to putting contenders over the top than in redesigning last place teams whose future core is mostly below 26 years of age? How do we know that the Owner can stay out of the way long enough for any renovations to take place, even if the aforementioned leadership can start moving the roster in the right direction?

    This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

    The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.
    well said.

    in 2006 the reds were in the division race despite a .500 record. this fooled a lot of people into thinking we were contenders. the cards won the division that year with 83 wins. this was a fluke. for the reds to be real contenders they have to build a team that can wins 90+ games. we are far far from that.
    plus the high minors are still fairly devoid of help except for a couple pitchers.
    the big league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.
    .

  7. #81
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.
    I'm with you on this. Moves must be made and soon. I'd acquire some real MLB players for the bench and then I'd try to find me a catcher--one that bats right-handed (no offense, but Ross is not and never has been the answer).
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  8. #82
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    n 2006 the reds were in the division race despite a .500 record. this fooled a lot of people into thinking we were contenders. the cards won the division that year with 83 wins. this was a fluke. for the reds to be real contenders they have to build a team that can wins 90+ games. we are far far from that.
    plus the high minors are still fairly devoid of help except for a couple pitchers.
    the big league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.
    Good point. It never realy fooled me, but it sure did the GM and owner who extended the manager and lots of players while I gagged over the commode. It was (as Bobby Huggins says) "fool's gold" to think we were contenders. I love Adam Dunn and Junior and Edwin, but replacements are needed. And a catcher. Can I say that too often?
    www.ris-news.com
    "You only have to bat a thousand in two things; flying and heart transplants. Everything else you can go 4-for-5."
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  9. #83
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?

  10. #84
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Clearly the rotation needs at least one more pitcher: should we move Bruce?

  11. #85
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?
    Well if those trades result in Harang and Volquez, then yes, that does sound like a winning formula

  12. #86
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    Re: What's Wrong

    The Reds are far too dependent on the home run ball. They have won a grand total (I believe--last I checked) of 2 games this season where they haven't had a home run. 2!!

  13. #87
    Member SteelSD's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.
    "The problem with strikeouts isn't that they hurt your team, it's that they hurt your feelings..." --Rob Neyer

    "The single most important thing for a hitter is to get a good pitch to hit. A good hitter can hit a pitch that’s over the plate three times better than a great hitter with a ball in a tough spot.”
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  14. #88
    Member Gainesville Red's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.
    I think it's been longer than that.

  15. #89
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Just "add" it? It's that simple?
    By trading Dunn? I hope they can add young, cheap talent through trading him.

    If they can't, then they are in bigger trouble than I thought.
    Last edited by edabbs44; 06-12-2008 at 07:52 AM.

  16. #90
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: What's Wrong

    Managers have come and gone yet the team has still played the same frustrating type of baseball. I wonder if the problem lies with the leadership of the club. I wonder if the problem lies with Dunn and Jr. I don't even mean to call them out but they are what they are. They are not fiery locker room leaders. They are two guys who look content just going out there and playing baseball day in day out whether they win or lose. There is nothing wrong with that, but when players look up to you as the leaders of the clubhouse there is where a problem can develop.

    When you watch this version of the Reds you see a team that plays with no intensity. You see the same mistakes being made and of what you can see its like the team just recognizes the mistake and says "go get em next time tiger". I can't remember the last time you saw a mistake being made and it looked like the Reds gave a damn. Cueto had a rough outing out there last night but I give the kid credit. He didn't have his stuff and after the 1st inning he gutted out 4 more innings of one run ball. After the 5 run first did the offense go up to Cueto and say "don't worry about it we will get them back" nope the offense went out there and got 3 hits in 9 innings off a pitcher who averages <6 innings and gives up more than a hit an inning.

    I am not advising someone taking a bat to a water cooler or going balistic on the field but it sure would be nice to see some emotion out there on the field. My fear is that when you see this lackluster game being played year after year after year your players begin to accept that as the norm. The worst thing that could happen to this club is for Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, etc. to accept and embrace that method of baseball. I really think this team needs to start anew. I think Jr, Dunn, and even EE need to be moved and to start over. I think its time to change the atmosphere and face of Reds baseball.


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