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Thread: Larkin 1995 MVP?

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    Member klw's Avatar
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    Larkin 1995 MVP?

    1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award


    Code:
                               1st           Max       |       Season Results 
     Rk Name             Team Place Points Points Share|   AB  H  HR   BA    OPS  SB|  W-L   IP  ERA   WHIP  SO SV
    +--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
      1 Barry Larkin      CIN   11    281    392  0.72 |  496 158 15  .319  .886  51|                            
      2 Dante Bichette    COL    6    251    392  0.64 |  579 197 40  .340  .984  13|                            
      3 Greg Maddux       ATL    7    249    392  0.64 |   72  11  0  .153  .368   0| 19-2  210  1.63  0.81 181   
      4 Mike Piazza       LAD    3    214    392  0.55 |  434 150 32  .346 1.006   1|                            
      5 Eric Karros       LAD    0    135    392  0.34 |  551 164 32  .298  .904   4|                            
      6 Reggie Sanders    CIN    0    120    392  0.31 |  484 148 28  .306  .976  36|                            
      7 Larry Walker      COL    0     88    392  0.22 |  494 151 36  .306  .988  16|                            
      8 Sammy Sosa        CHC    0     81    392  0.21 |  564 151 36  .268  .840  34|                            
      9 Tony Gwynn        SDP    0     72    392  0.18 |  535 197  9  .368  .888  17|                            
     10 Craig Biggio      HOU    0     58    392  0.15 |  553 167 22  .302  .889  33|                            
     11 Ron Gant          CIN    1     31    392  0.08 |  410 113 29  .276  .940  23|                            
     12 Barry Bonds       SFG    0     21    392  0.05 |  506 149 33  .294 1.008  31|                            
     13 Mark Grace        CHC    0     14    392  0.04 |  552 180 16  .326  .911   6|                            
     14 Derek Bell        HOU    0     12    392  0.03 |  452 151  8  .334  .827  27|                            
     15 Jeff Bagwell      HOU    0      5    392  0.01 |  448 130 21  .290  .895  12|                            
     16 Andres Galarraga  COL    0      4    392  0.01 |  554 155 31  .280  .842  12|                            
     16 Charlie Hayes     PHI    0      4    392  0.01 |  529 146 11  .276  .746   5|                            
     18 Vinny Castilla    COL    0      3    392  0.01 |  527 163 32  .309  .911   2|                            
     18 Chipper Jones     ATL    0      3    392  0.01 |  524 139 23  .265  .803   8|                            
     20 Fred McGriff      ATL    0      2    392  0.01 |  528 148 27  .280  .850   3|                            
     20 Pete Schourek     CIN    0      2    392  0.01 |   59  13  0  .220  .474   0| 18-7  190  3.22  1.07 160   
     22 Jeff Conine       FLA    0      1    392  0.00 |  483 146 25  .302  .899   2|                            
     22 Tom Henke         STL    0      1    392  0.00 |    1   0  0  .000  .000   0|  1-1   54  1.82  1.10  48 36
    Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award


    Code:
                               1st           Max       |       Season Results 
     Rk Name             Team Place Points Points Share|   AB  H  HR   BA    OPS  SB|  W-L   IP  ERA   WHIP  SO SV
    +--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
      1 Barry Larkin      CIN   11    281    392  0.72 |  496 158 15  .319  .886  51|                            
      2 Dante Bichette    COL    6    251    392  0.64 |  579 197 40  .340  .984  13|                            
      3 Greg Maddux       ATL    7    249    392  0.64 |   72  11  0  .153  .368   0| 19-2  210  1.63  0.81 181   
      4 Mike Piazza       LAD    3    214    392  0.55 |  434 150 32  .346 1.006   1|                            
      5 Eric Karros       LAD    0    135    392  0.34 |  551 164 32  .298  .904   4|                            
      6 Reggie Sanders    CIN    0    120    392  0.31 |  484 148 28  .306  .976  36|                            
      7 Larry Walker      COL    0     88    392  0.22 |  494 151 36  .306  .988  16|                            
      8 Sammy Sosa        CHC    0     81    392  0.21 |  564 151 36  .268  .840  34|                            
      9 Tony Gwynn        SDP    0     72    392  0.18 |  535 197  9  .368  .888  17|                            
     10 Craig Biggio      HOU    0     58    392  0.15 |  553 167 22  .302  .889  33|                            
     11 Ron Gant          CIN    1     31    392  0.08 |  410 113 29  .276  .940  23|                            
     12 Barry Bonds       SFG    0     21    392  0.05 |  506 149 33  .294 1.008  31|                            
     13 Mark Grace        CHC    0     14    392  0.04 |  552 180 16  .326  .911   6|                            
     14 Derek Bell        HOU    0     12    392  0.03 |  452 151  8  .334  .827  27|                            
     15 Jeff Bagwell      HOU    0      5    392  0.01 |  448 130 21  .290  .895  12|                            
     16 Andres Galarraga  COL    0      4    392  0.01 |  554 155 31  .280  .842  12|                            
     16 Charlie Hayes     PHI    0      4    392  0.01 |  529 146 11  .276  .746   5|                            
     18 Vinny Castilla    COL    0      3    392  0.01 |  527 163 32  .309  .911   2|                            
     18 Chipper Jones     ATL    0      3    392  0.01 |  524 139 23  .265  .803   8|                            
     20 Fred McGriff      ATL    0      2    392  0.01 |  528 148 27  .280  .850   3|                            
     20 Pete Schourek     CIN    0      2    392  0.01 |   59  13  0  .220  .474   0| 18-7  190  3.22  1.07 160   
     22 Jeff Conine       FLA    0      1    392  0.00 |  483 146 25  .302  .899   2|                            
     22 Tom Henke         STL    0      1    392  0.00 |    1   0  0  .000  .000   0|  1-1   54  1.82  1.10  48 36
    Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.
    ok here goes:

    1. OPS for position significantly higher than averge - likely 150 pts above

    2. gold glove caliber defense

    3. 51 stolen bases
    .

  4. #3
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

    Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?

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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Good question.

    I think that Barry got votes because he put up those stats and was clearly the best player on the team that won a division championship. Bichette put up his stats in the thin (pre-humidor) air of Denver and they only won the wild card.
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    I think Reggie Sanders had a stronger case for MVP honestly...
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    He 'out-OPSed' the third place finisher by 500 points. Case closed.
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

    Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?
    Larkin's '95 and '96 seasons are very close and could go either way. They were his two greatest seasons though, and if you compare those seasons amongst all-time great seasons by a shortstop, he's pretty far up the list with '95 and '96.

    IIRC, Bonds led the NL in win shares in 1995. Piazza and Larkin were up there too, though. Of course, Larkin was playing gold glove caliber defense at shortstop whereas Bonds was a left fielder and Piazza was a subpar defensive catcher.

    Larkin did have two "other stats" excluded from OPS that were very key for him as well:

    1) 51 stolen bases and only five caught steals all season, good for a 91 percent success rate
    2) Only 6 GDPs all season

    Bill James has called Larkin one of the most complete players in baseball history. In 1995 and 1996, Larkin was at his peak of being one of the most complete players in baseball history.

    FWIW, the average NL SS did only hit .256/.326/.370/.695 in 1995 too.
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Help me out guys because I was only five years old, but why didn't Piazza win it? He was a better hitter at CATCHER. Was his defense that bad? Did his team finish poorly ( IMO)?
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  10. #9
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Wasn't his 96 year better than 95?

    Has anyone stolen 51 bases recently?
    I also thought his '96 season was even better than '95.

    Deion Sanders stole 56 bases for the Reds in 1997.
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  11. #10
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Help me out guys because I was only five years old, but why didn't Piazza win it? He was a better hitter at CATCHER. Was his defense that bad? Did his team finish poorly ( IMO)?
    One likely reason was simply playing time. Larkin played in 131 games and tallied 567 plate appearances whereas Piazza only played in 112 games with 475 plate appearances.

    The 1995 season was strike-shortened (season started late), but the schedule still was about 144 games. Piazza missed nearly one-fourth of his team's games.
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    for comparison

    1996 National League Most Valuable Player Award


    Code:
                              1st           Max       |       Season Results 
     Rk Name             Team Place Points Points Share|   AB  H  HR   BA    OPS  SB|  W-L   IP  ERA   WHIP  SO SV
    +--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
      1 Ken Caminiti      SDP   28    392    392  1.00 |  546 178 40  .326 1.029  11|                            
      2 Mike Piazza       LAD    0    237    392  0.60 |  547 184 36  .336  .985   0|                            
      3 Ellis Burks       COL    0    186    392  0.47 |  613 211 40  .344 1.047  32|                            
      4 Chipper Jones     ATL    0    158    392  0.40 |  598 185 30  .309  .923  14|                            
      5 Barry Bonds       SFG    0    132    392  0.34 |  517 159 42  .308 1.076  40|                            
      6 Andres Galarraga  COL    0    112    392  0.29 |  626 190 47  .304  .958  18|                            
      6 Gary Sheffield    FLA    0    112    392  0.29 |  519 163 42  .314 1.089  16|                            
      8 Brian Jordan      STL    0     69    392  0.18 |  513 159 17  .310  .832  22|                            
      9 Jeff Bagwell      HOU    0     59    392  0.15 |  568 179 31  .315 1.021  21|                            
     10 Steve Finley      SDP    0     38    392  0.10 |  655 195 30  .298  .885  22|                            
     11 John Smoltz       ATL    0     33    392  0.08 |   78  17  1  .218  .548   0| 24-8  254  2.94  1.00 276   
     12 Barry Larkin      CIN    0     29    392  0.07 |  517 154 33  .298  .977  36|                            
     13 Marquis Grissom   ATL    0     23    392  0.06 |  671 207 23  .308  .838  28|                            
     14 Bernard Gilkey    NYM    0     13    392  0.03 |  571 181 30  .317  .955  17|                            
     15 Sammy Sosa        CHC    0     12    392  0.03 |  498 136 40  .273  .887  18|                            
     16 Eric Karros       LAD    0     10    392  0.03 |  608 158 34  .260  .795   8|                            
     17 Henry Rodriguez   MON    0      9    392  0.02 |  532 147 36  .276  .887   2|                            
     18 Todd Hundley      NYM    0      7    392  0.02 |  540 140 41  .259  .906   1|                            
     18 Lance Johnson     NYM    0      7    392  0.02 |  682 227  9  .333  .841  50|                            
     20 Dante Bichette    COL    0      6    392  0.02 |  633 198 31  .313  .890  31|                            
     21 Todd Worrell      LAD    0      3    392  0.01 |                            |  4-6   65  3.03  1.30  66 44
     22 Kevin Brown       FLA    0      2    392  0.01 |   75   9  0  .120  .318   0| 17-11 233  1.89  0.94 159   
     22 Trevor Hoffman    SDP    0      2    392  0.01 |    8   0  0  .000  .000   0|  9-5   88  2.25  0.92 111 42
     24 Moises Alou       MON    0      1    392  0.00 |  540 152 21  .281  .796   9|
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  13. #12
    Start the Reactor! *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    One likely reason was simply playing time. Larkin played in 131 games and tallied 567 plate appearances whereas Piazza only played in 112 games with 475 plate appearances.

    The 1995 season was strike-shortened (season started late), but the schedule still was about 144 games. Piazza missed nearly one-fourth of his team's games.
    Yeah, upon further examination his walk rate was much lower in 1995 (every 12.2 PA) than his career norm (every 10.2 PA) and only AB were listed in this thread. However, Piazza had a higher OBP and outslugged Larkin by more than 100 points. The difference in OPS makes up for the defense and base running IMO, so it really comes down to the positional difference and whether or not that makes up for Piazza's less playing time...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  14. #13
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    1995 National League Most Valuable Player Award


    Code:
                               1st           Max       |       Season Results 
     Rk Name             Team Place Points Points Share|   AB  H  HR   BA    OPS  SB|  W-L   IP  ERA   WHIP  SO SV
    +--+----------------+----+-----+------+------+-----+-----+---+--+-----+-----+---+------+---+-----+-----+---+--+
      1 Barry Larkin      CIN   11    281    392  0.72 |  496 158 15  .319  .886  51|                            
      2 Dante Bichette    COL    6    251    392  0.64 |  579 197 40  .340  .984  13|                            
      3 Greg Maddux       ATL    7    249    392  0.64 |   72  11  0  .153  .368   0| 19-2  210  1.63  0.81 181   
      4 Mike Piazza       LAD    3    214    392  0.55 |  434 150 32  .346 1.006   1|                            
      5 Eric Karros       LAD    0    135    392  0.34 |  551 164 32  .298  .904   4|                            
      6 Reggie Sanders    CIN    0    120    392  0.31 |  484 148 28  .306  .976  36|                            
      7 Larry Walker      COL    0     88    392  0.22 |  494 151 36  .306  .988  16|                            
      8 Sammy Sosa        CHC    0     81    392  0.21 |  564 151 36  .268  .840  34|                            
      9 Tony Gwynn        SDP    0     72    392  0.18 |  535 197  9  .368  .888  17|                            
     10 Craig Biggio      HOU    0     58    392  0.15 |  553 167 22  .302  .889  33|                            
     11 Ron Gant          CIN    1     31    392  0.08 |  410 113 29  .276  .940  23|                            
     12 Barry Bonds       SFG    0     21    392  0.05 |  506 149 33  .294 1.008  31|                            
     13 Mark Grace        CHC    0     14    392  0.04 |  552 180 16  .326  .911   6|                            
     14 Derek Bell        HOU    0     12    392  0.03 |  452 151  8  .334  .827  27|                            
     15 Jeff Bagwell      HOU    0      5    392  0.01 |  448 130 21  .290  .895  12|                            
     16 Andres Galarraga  COL    0      4    392  0.01 |  554 155 31  .280  .842  12|                            
     16 Charlie Hayes     PHI    0      4    392  0.01 |  529 146 11  .276  .746   5|                            
     18 Vinny Castilla    COL    0      3    392  0.01 |  527 163 32  .309  .911   2|                            
     18 Chipper Jones     ATL    0      3    392  0.01 |  524 139 23  .265  .803   8|                            
     20 Fred McGriff      ATL    0      2    392  0.01 |  528 148 27  .280  .850   3|                            
     20 Pete Schourek     CIN    0      2    392  0.01 |   59  13  0  .220  .474   0| 18-7  190  3.22  1.07 160   
     22 Jeff Conine       FLA    0      1    392  0.00 |  483 146 25  .302  .899   2|                            
     22 Tom Henke         STL    0      1    392  0.00 |    1   0  0  .000  .000   0|  1-1   54  1.82  1.10  48 36
    Here are the results from the 1995 voting. I remember at the time there was discussion that Larkin won due to locker room presence, leadership etc. I am curious to see if people could construct statistical, sabermetric arguments either for or against his winning the MVP that year. I though people's approaches on this would be interesting to see.
    How Maddux didn't win it is beyond me. Those numbers are flat out dominant in every sense of the word. As great as Larkin's season was (especially relative to his position), Maddux had the more impressive season IMO.

  15. #14
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    best thing about 95 was sweeping the Dodgers in the 1st round, I was camping with a Dodger fan in Sequoia, listening to it on the radio.

    Code:
    SEASON
    1995
    RUNS CREATED/GAME vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    OPS vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    TOTAL AVERAGE                   DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE    RC/G      OPS    
    1    Edgar Martinez             .491    1.300     .809     6.33     .276   
    2    Albert Belle               .399    1.150     .751     4.22     .315   
    3    Barry Bonds                .395    1.156     .761     3.86     .208   
    4    John Valentin              .390    1.016     .625     4.12     .231   
    5    Barry Larkin               .382    1.014     .632     4.09     .191   
    6    Frank Thomas               .375    1.238     .863     3.84     .193   
    7    Mike Piazza                .367    1.034     .667     4.80     .274   
    8    Jim Thome                  .360    1.106     .746     4.29     .211   
    9    Tim Salmon                 .344    1.112     .769     4.45     .216   
    10   Chuck Knoblauch            .307     .964     .657     3.36     .198

  16. #15
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    Re: Larkin 1995 MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    How Maddux didn't win it is beyond me. Those numbers are flat out dominant in every sense of the word. As great as Larkin's season was (especially relative to his position), Maddux had the more impressive season IMO.

    Maddux won the Cy didn't he. I thought the year Barry hit 30 homeruns was an MVP year.

    What about Pete Schourek that year. He had a great year also.18-7 was a great season.

    I did not realize Reggie finished 6th that year. Ron Gant was 11th. What a team that was.....

    Sometimes when you have two good players like that they split the votes. Larry Walker actually stole votes from Bichette costing him the MVP.

    ON another note:

    I think a pitcher should have the Cy and the fielders/batters should have the MVP. Or name it something different and then also have the MVP, because yes a pitcher can be the MVP of your team.

    I of course always wondered how Hernandez of Detroit won the MVP and Cy in 84?? I do not believe a relief pitcher should be the MVP of a team.
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