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Thread: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Question is it the offense?
    Question is it the pitching?
    Question is it the position defense?
    Question are the Reds players as bad as their won/loss record indicates?
    Question has it been the lineup construction and player utilization by the manager?
    Question is it reasonable to think that the Reds could have won more games?
    Question is it the lack of on base percentage by Reds players?

    Did you know that the Reds have lost 23 games of their 40 losses by 2 runs or less?
    Did you know that the Reds have lost 13 games of their 40 losses by 1 run or less
    Did you know during the games that the Reds lost June-May-April they averaged,
    June RS 23 /11 games 2.09 RPG in games lost,
    May RS 38 / 12 games 3.17 RPG in games lost,
    April RS 40 / 16 games 2.50 RPG in games lost

    The Reds have lost 6 games in June-May-April where they have been shutout
    The Reds have lost 13 games in June-May-April games where they scored 1 run or less:
    The Reds have lost 23 games in June-May-April games where they scored 2 runs or less:
    The Reds have lost 31 games in June-May-April games where they scored 3 runs or less:

    Code:
    Runs Scored		Games Lost
    Total = 0 runs scored,     6 games lost
    Total =/< 1 run scored,    7 games lost
    Total =/< 2 runs scored,  10 games lost
    Total =/< 3 runs scored,   8 games lost
    
    June 18th summary:
    RS 23 /11 games 2.09 RPG in games lost
    
    Runs scored during teams 11 losses
    0 - runs scored- 3 games
    1 - run  scored- 2 games
    2 - runs scored- 3 games
    3 - runs scored- 0 games
    
    Total > 3 runs scored 3 games
    
    Total =/< 2 runs scored 8games
    Total =/< 3 runs scored 8games
    
    
    Runs, 6 Games Won By		Runs, 11 Games Lost By
    1 run - 0 games			1  run - 3 games
    2 runs -2 game 			2  runs -2 games
    3 runs -0 games			3  runs -0 games
    
    > 3 runs 4 games		>3 runs 6 games
    
    May summary:
    RS 38 / 12 games RPG  3.17 in games lost
    
    Runs scored during teams 12 losses
    0 -runs scored - 2 games
    1 -run scored -  2 games
    2 -runs scored - 3 games
    3 -runs scored - 1 games
    
    Total > 3 runs scored 4 games
    
    Total = /< 2 runs scored 7 games
    Total = /< 3 runs scored 8 games
    
    Runs, 15 Games Won By	Runs, 12 Games Lost By
    1 run -  6 games	1  run - 1 game
    2 runs -4 games 	2  runs - 1 games
    3 runs -1 games		3  runs - 4 games
    
    > 3 runs 4 games	>3 runs 6 games
    
    April summary:
    RS 40 /16 games RPG 2.50
    
    Runs scored during teams 16 losses
    0 -runs scored -1 games
    1 -run  scored -2 games
    2 -runs scored -4 games
    3 -runs scored -7 games
    
    > 3 runs scored -2 games
    
    Total = /< 2 runs scored 7 games
    Total = /< 3 runs scored 14 games
    
    Total > 3 runs scored 3 games
    
    
    Runs, 12 Games Won By	Runs, 16 Games Lost By
    1 run -6  games		1 run - 3 games
    2 runs-0 games 		2 runs -4 games
    3 runs-1 games		3 runs -2 games
    > 3 runs 5 games	>3 runs 7 games
    
    
    June to date 6/18
    Total RS 60 	RA 83 Dif - 23
    6 - Wins 			11 - Losses
    RS 37/6 games 6.17 RPG		RA 71 /11 games 6.45 RPG
    RA 12/6 games 2.00  RPG	        RS 23/11 games 2.09 RPG
      
    RS 60/17  games 3.53 RPG
    RA 83/17  games 4.88 RPG
    
    Runs, 6 Games Won By		Runs, 11 Games Lost By
    1 run -0 games			1 run -3 games
    2 runs -2 games 		2 runs -2 games
    3 runs -0 games			3 runs -0 games
    > 3 runs 4 games		>3 runs 6 games
    
    Total =/< 2 runs 2 game won 	Total =/<2 runs 5 games lost
    Total =/< 3 runs 2 game won 	Total =/<3 runs 5 games lost
    
    Runs scored during teams 11 losses
    0 -runs scored -3 games
    1 -run scored - 2 games
    2 -runs scored -3 games
    3 -runs scored -0 games
    
    Total > 3 runs scored 3 games
    
    Total = /< 2 runs scored 8 games
    Total = /< 3 runs scored 8 games
    
    		       June - Winning Scores	 June Losing Scores
    June 1 vs. Atlanta		W 6-2 
    June 2 at Philadelphia 			               L 5-4  
    June 3 at Philadelphia 			               L 3-2  
    June 4 at Philadelphia 		W 2-0  
    June 5 at Philadelphia 			               L 5-0  
    June 6 at Florida 		W 11-3  
    June 7 at Florida 			               L 8-7  
    June 8 at Florida 				       L 9-2  
    June 9 at Florida 		W 9-4  
    June 10 vs. St. Louis 			               L 7-2  
    June 11 vs. St. Louis 			               L 10-0  
    June 12 vs. St. Louis 		W 6-2  
    June 13 vs. Boston 		W 3-1  
    June 14 vs. Boston 			               L 6-4  
    June 15 vs. Boston 			               L 9-0 
    June 17 vs. LA Dodgers 			               L 3-1 
    June 18 vs. LA Dodgers			               L 6-1
    			       RS37	RA12	RA71	RS 23
    
    May 
    Total RS 132  RA 139   Dif - 7
    15 - Wins 			12 - Losses
    RS 94 /15 games RPG  6.27 	RA 90/12 games RPG  7.50
    RA 49 /15 games RPG  3.27	RS 38/12 games RPG  3.17
    
    RS 132/27 games  RPG  4.89   
    RA 139/27 games  RPG  5.15
    
    Runs, 15 Games Won By		Runs, 12 Games Lost By
    1 run -6 games		        1  run - 1 game
    2 runs -4 games 		2  runs -1 games
    3 runs -1 games			3  runs -4 games
    > 3 runs 4 games		>3 runs -6 games
    
    Total =/< 2 runs 10 games won 	Total =/<2 runs 2 games lost
    Total =/< 3 runs 11 games won	Total =/<3 runs 6 games lost
    
    Runs scored during teams 12 losses
    0 - runs scored -2 games
    1 - run scored -2 games
    2 - runs scored -3 games
    3 - runs scored -1 games
    
    Total > 3 runs scored 4 games
    
    Total = /< 2 runs scored 8 games
    Total = /< 3 runs scored 8 games
    
    
    		May - Winning Scores   May - Losing Scores
    May 2 at Atlanta 				L 2-0  
    May 3 at Atlanta 				L 9-1  
    May 4 at Atlanta 				L 14-7  
    May 5 vs. Chi Cubs 	W 5-3  
    May 6 vs. Chi Cubs 			        L 3-0  
    May 7 vs. Chi Cubs 	W 9-0  
    May 10 at NY Mets 			        L 12-6  
    May 10 at NY Mets 	W 7-1  
    May 11 at NY Mets 			        L 8-3  
    May 12 vs. Florida 	W 8-7  
    May 13 vs. Florida 	W 5-3 
    May 14 vs. Florida 	W 7-6  
    May 16 vs. Cleveland 	W 4-3  
    May 17 vs. Cleveland 	W 4-2 
    May 18 vs. Cleveland 	W 6-4  
    May 19 at LA Dodgers 			        L 6-5  
    May 20 at LA Dodgers 			        L 4-1  
    May 21 at LA Dodgers 			        L 5-2  
    May 22 at San Diego 			        L 8-2 
    May 23 at San Diego 	W 3-2  
    May 24 at San Diego 	W 7-2  
    May 25 at San Diego                             L 12-9  
    May 27 vs. Pittsburgh 	W 9-6 
    May 28 vs. Pittsburgh 	W 9-1
    May 29 vs. Pittsburgh 			        L 7-2  
    May 30 vs. Atlanta 	W 3-2  
    May 31 vs. Atlanta	W 8-7
    		         RS 94 RA 49	        RA 90 RS 38
    
    April 
    Total RS 122  RA 135   Dif - 13
    
    12 - Wins 			16 - Losses
    RS 82/12 games RPG 6.83 	RA 99/16 games RPG 6.19
    RA 36/12 games RPG 3.00		RS 40/16 games RPG 2.50
    
    RS 122/28 games RPG 4.36   
    RA 135/28 games RPG 4.82
    
    Runs, 12 Games Won By		Runs, 16 Games Lost By
    1 run - 6 games			1  run - 3 games
    2 runs -0 games 		2  runs - 4 games
    3 runs -1 games			3  runs - 2 games
    
    > 3 runs 5 games		>3 runs 7 games
    
    Total =/< 2 runs 6 game won 	Total =/<2 runs 5 games lost
    Total =/< 3 runs 7 game won 	Total =/<3 runs 5 games lost
    
    Runs scored during teams 16 losses
    0 - runs scored - 1 games
    1 - run scored - 2 games
    2 - runs scored -4 games
    3 - runs scored -7 games
    > 3 runs scored -2 games
    
    Total = /< 2 runs scored 7 games
    Total = /< 3 runs scored 8 games
    
    Total >3 runs scored 3 games
    
    	                April - Winning Scores   April - Losing Scores
    Apr. 2 vs. Arizona                   W 6-5  
    Apr. 3 vs. Arizona                   W 3-2  
    Apr. 4 vs. Philadelphia 				  L 8-4  
    Apr. 5 vs. Philadelphia              W 4-3  
    Apr. 6 vs. Philadelphia              W 8-2  
    Apr. 7 vs. Philadelphia 				  L 5-3  
    Apr. 8 at Milwaukee 				          L 3-2  
    Apr. 9 at Milwaukee                  W 12-4  
    Apr. 10 at Milwaukee                 W 4-1 
    Apr. 11 at Pittsburgh 				          L 1-0  
    Apr. 12 at Pittsburgh 				          L 4-3  
    Apr. 13 at Pittsburgh 				          L 9-1  
    Apr. 15 at Chi Cubs 				          L 9-5  
    Apr. 16 at Chi Cubs 				          L 12-3  
    Apr. 17 at Chi Cubs                  W 9-2  
    Apr. 18 vs. Milwaukee 				          L 5-2  
    Apr. 19 vs. Milwaukee 				          L 5-3  
    Apr. 20 vs. Milwaukee                W 4-3  
    Apr. 21 vs. LA Dodgers 				          L 9-3  
    Apr. 22 vs. LA Dodgers               W 8-1  
    Apr. 23 vs. Houston 				          L 9-3  
    Apr. 24 vs. Houston 				          L 5-3  
    Apr. 25 at San Francisco 				  L 3-1 
    Apr. 26 at San Francisco             W 10-9 
    Apr. 27 at San Francisco             W 10-1 
    Apr. 28 at St. Louis                 W 4-3 
    Apr. 29 at St. Louis 				          L 7-2  
    Apr. 30 at St. Louis 				          L 5-2 
    			              RS 82 RA 36	  RA 99 RS 40
    
    March 31, 4-2 loss with Arizona 
    and June 19 7- 4 loss with the Dodgers not included in the data above
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-19-2008 at 06:38 PM.

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Question is it the offense?
    Question is it the pitching?
    Question is it the position defense?
    Question are the Reds players as bad as their won/loss record indicates?
    Question has it been the lineup construction and player utilization by the manager?
    Question is it reasonable to think that the Reds could have won more games?
    Question is it the lack of on base percentage by Reds players?
    Yes.
    Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    Yes.
    I agree

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Amazing the impact of having no tablesetters on the team. Jerry Hairston and Jeff Keppinger aren't elite players, but their absence seems to make a big difference on this ballclub.

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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    We simply have too many automatic outs in this line up.

    CF with Patterson is an out.
    C with the exception of a hot spell by Bako is an out
    P is an out
    SS without Hairston and Keppinger is an out.

    LF is performing to career norms, but RF continues to decline, and 2B this year is on the decline, though I think that will come around in time.

    All in all, its the offense more than most will believe.

    That said, the starters outside Volquez and 1 out of 3 starts from Arroyo has been pretty ugly as well.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Amazing the impact of having no tablesetters on the team. Jerry Hairston and Jeff Keppinger aren't elite players, but their absence seems to make a big difference on this ballclub.
    I agree with you that the loss of Keppinger and a hot hitting Hairston has really hindered the teams opportunities to score, much, when you lose their on base percentages at the top, well it becomes like putting players at the top that have a poor OBP, same difference and yes it makes a difference as you point out.

    The offenses problems have been spread pretty much through out April, May, and June even during times when Keppinger or a Hairston was with the club.

    June RS 23 /11 games 2.09 RPG in games lost,
    May RS 38 / 12 games 3.17 RPG in games lost,
    April RS 40 / 16 games 2.50 RPG in games lost

    The Reds actually had some blowout type games that inflate those runs per game averages when they have lost.

    The Reds have lost 6 games in June-May-April where they have been shutout
    The Reds have lost 13 games in June-May-April games where they scored 1 run or less:
    The Reds have lost 23 games in June-May-April games where they scored 2 runs or less:
    The Reds have lost 31 games in June-May-April games where they scored 3 runs or less:

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by VR View Post
    Yes.
    I believe that all of the above is true also. Granted those questions are slanted by a bias, the stats were a bit consistent and surprising to me though, as I did not realize how many really close games of 2 runs or less that the Reds had lost basically against all comers, making them a decent team in my view.

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    We simply have too many automatic outs in this line up.
    CF with Patterson is an out.
    C with the exception of a hot spell by Bako is an out
    P is an out
    SS without Hairston and Keppinger is an out.

    LF is performing to career norms, but RF continues to decline, and 2B this year is on the decline, though I think that will come around in time.

    All in all, its the offense more than most will believe.

    That said, the starters outside Volquez and 1 out of 3 starts from Arroyo has been pretty ugly as well.
    Though several of them with the OBP will look better, many of these players do have a low batting average, which would indicate to me that it is as you are saying, too many players that often make outs. I think that the stats support the rest of your points.

    I was trying to get a truer view of what this team is. I don't know how to adjust for defensive errors, and several of the games though not the point here were blow out games at various times against the pitching that skews the stats on the pitching.

    Though I do feel that the offense is under performing through April, May, and June, the injuries are taking their tolls in June as KC is pointing out, but, this offense is streaky, hot/cold as we have seen in past years also.

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    KC,
    The team is only 8 games under .500, which is not good, but the point I am getting at and I believe that you can see that this team has under performed offensively in several games that could have or might have been wins instead of losses, in those games that they lost when they scored 2 or less runs.

    We are looking at 22 games where they scored 2 runs or less, that seems like a lot, maybe it is a norm, is it ?

    Cincinnati 33 41 .446 RS 320 RA368 -48 Lost 5


    April summary:
    Runs scored during teams 16 losses
    0 -runs scored -1 games
    1 -run scored -2 games
    2 -runs scored -4 games
    3 -runs scored -7 games

    May summary:
    Runs scored during teams 12 losses
    0 -runs scored - 2 games
    1 -run scored - 2 games
    2 -runs scored - 3 games
    3 -runs scored - 1 game

    June 18th summary:
    Runs scored during teams 11 losses
    0 - runs scored- 3 games
    1 - run scored- 2 games
    2 - runs scored- 3 games

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Yes.... it has hurt with "table setters" like Keppinger, Hairston, and Freel on the DL. But personally, I don't think it would have made that much of a difference because this team has simply been terrible hitting with RISP....

    Code:
                       R	 H	2B	3B	HR	TB	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
    
    MLB Average       245	161	34	4	16	250	229	.258	.353	.401	.754
    
    Reds              226   146     31      3      15      228     209     .252    .354    .390    .745
    And with bases loaded it gets even uglier....

    .234 BA .284 OB&#37; .286 SLG% .570%
    Last edited by GAC; 06-19-2008 at 09:12 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Yes.... it has hurt with "table setters" like Keppinger, Hairston, and Freel on the DL. But personally, I don't think it would have made that much of a difference because this team has simply been terrible hitting with RISP....

    Code:
                       R	 H	2B	3B	HR	TB	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
    
    MLB Average       245	161	34	4	16	250	229	.258	.353	.401	.754
    
    Reds              226   146     31      3      15      228     209     .252    .354    .390    .745
    And with bases loaded it gets even uglier....

    .234 BA .284 OB&#37; .286 SLG% .570%
    How can they be batting almost league average and be so bad scoring? I am assuming that is the team batting stat.

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    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Those are all team stats with RISP vs league average. They are below league average in a majority of the categories. And even if slightly below, it still shows why we are below .500.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Code:
                                       BA   OBP   SLG OPS
    National league average           .258 .330 .410 .741
    Cincinnati                        .247 .326 .406 .732
    Team batting.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 06-19-2008 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #14
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Those are all team stats with RISP vs league average. They are below league average in a majority of the categories. And even if slightly below, it still shows why we are below .500.
    Okay, I understand now, you're right. How can the whole team be so bad or having a rough time of it seemingly at the same type offensively, any theories GAC?

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    Re: Did You Know? Question Is It The Offense, Pitching Or Defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    KC,
    The team is only 8 games under .500, which is not good, but the point I am getting at and I believe that you can see that this team has under performed offensively in several games that could have or might have been wins instead of losses, in those games that they lost when they scored 2 or less runs.

    We are looking at 22 games where they scored 2 runs or less, that seems like a lot, maybe it is a norm, is it ?

    Cincinnati 33 41 .446 RS 320 RA368 -48 Lost 5


    April summary:
    Runs scored during teams 16 losses
    0 -runs scored -1 games
    1 -run scored -2 games
    2 -runs scored -4 games
    3 -runs scored -7 games

    May summary:
    Runs scored during teams 12 losses
    0 -runs scored - 2 games
    1 -run scored - 2 games
    2 -runs scored - 3 games
    3 -runs scored - 1 game

    June 18th summary:
    Runs scored during teams 11 losses
    0 - runs scored- 3 games
    1 - run scored- 2 games
    2 - runs scored- 3 games
    So the Reds have 41 losses and have scored three runs or less in 32 of these games. This seems like pretty strong proof of a lousy offense if you ask me. 32 losses with three runs or less.


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