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Thread: Anybody else upset???????

  1. #16
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Ok, here was tonight's lineup.. what would you have done?
    Really, the only other option was to put Janish at SS who is a worse bat than Patterson and is not nearly as good of a defender.. In other words, the team is weaker defensively with Janish at SS and Hairston at CF.


    Name AVG HR RBI SB
    1. J Hairston Jr., SS .336 1 14 12
    2. A Dunn, LF .220 18 44 1
    3. B Phillips, 2B .274 13 44 14
    4. K Griffey Jr., DH .245 9 34 0
    5. J Votto, 1B .287 12 38 4
    6. J Keppinger, 3B .316 3 21 2
    7. J Bruce, RF .296 4 14 2
    8. C Patterson, CF .191 6 16 10
    9. P Bako, C .226 6 21 0
    This is the point....I am not talking about tonight's line up. I am talking about a GM that would allow Patterson to take up a roster spot, hitting .190, rather than bring up Dickerson or make a deal for another fill in.

    Patterson is indicative of a disease.
    "Is there a problem officers?"

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  3. #17
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    All of the everyday regulars have taken an enormous stride backwards from their previous production under the utterly inept tutelage of Dusty Baker, and Dick Pole has been basically all thumbs with the pitching staff.
    Well it has been moving that way for some time now, I realize that you have pointed that out early on in April/May and that some of the rest of us are coming late to the party. I don't think that Baker can win without the big payroll of the big city market.

  4. #18
    Boom Goes the Dynamite Screwball's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Patterson's usage is just a symptom of the organization's system wide disease. I'm upset that this team, after playing .500+ ball for the last 4 months of 2007, is yet again completely unwatchable in June of 2008. Another season completely flushed well before the All-Star Break was even on the horizon. The only slightly compelling aspect of this franchise is the relative youth of virtually all of the meaningful personnel moving forward.

    All of the everyday regulars have taken an enormous stride backwards from their previous production under the utterly inept tutelage of Dusty Baker, and Dick Pole has been basically all thumbs with the pitching staff.

    It's difficult to be excited about this organization despite the youth and the forever unrealized potential, given that the current manager is on a 3 year deal, the owner is both impetuous in manner and oblivious in understanding, and that the GM moves with the lightning quick reflexes of a glacier.
    What he said.

  5. #19
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Cory Patterson or Norris Hopper? Six of one a half dozen of the other.

    I don't really like our choices here, Patterson can play defense and Hopper can bunt.

    I wouldn't pay too much for eighther one.

  6. #20
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    How long is Jocketty going to evaluate before he does something realistic to improve the team? Has he already decided this season is shot? So that he is just going to play the cards that was dealt, while the losing continues?

  7. #21
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    How long is Jocketty going to evaluate before he does something realistic to improve the team? Has he already decided this season is shot? So that he is just going to play the cards that was dealt, while the losing continues?
    I don't know if he has many options (let alone "good" options) at this point in the season.
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  8. #22
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    I don't know if he has many options (let alone "good" options) at this point in the season.
    Exactly. Unless you are willing to see Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Votto or the likes leave the team, it is nearly impossible to get this this team anywhere close to where it needs to be mid-season.

    Walt is on the clock starting at the deadline to start to take this team in a direction.

  9. #23
    High five! nate's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Exactly. Unless you are willing to see Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Votto or the likes leave the team, it is nearly impossible to get this this team anywhere close to where it needs to be mid-season.

    Walt is on the clock starting at the deadline to start to take this team in a direction.
    You don't think a peel-off cardboard cutout of Bob C (a la "Rachel Phelps") would inspire the fellas?
    "Bring on Rod Stupid!"

  10. #24
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Patterson's usage is just a symptom of the organization's system wide disease. I'm upset that this team, after playing .500+ ball for the last 4 months of 2007, is yet again completely unwatchable in June of 2008. Another season completely flushed well before the All-Star Break was even on the horizon. The only slightly compelling aspect of this franchise is the relative youth of virtually all of the meaningful personnel moving forward.

    All of the everyday regulars have taken an enormous stride backwards from their previous production under the utterly inept tutelage of Dusty Baker, and Dick Pole has been basically all thumbs with the pitching staff.

    It's difficult to be excited about this organization despite the youth and the forever unrealized potential, given that the current manager is on a 3 year deal, the owner is both impetuous in manner and oblivious in understanding, and that the GM moves with the lightning quick reflexes of a glacier.
    Good post, Stormy, and I'll follow that up with something that will make us both sick.

    This offense is on pace to score 686 runs ... for the entire season. They're on pace to lose 97 runs of offense this season, a drop of a whopping 12.4 percent from last season.

    To use the vernacular of my generation: this offense simply blows.
    Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012

    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

  11. #25
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by red-in-la View Post
    This is the point....I am not talking about tonight's line up. I am talking about a GM that would allow Patterson to take up a roster spot, hitting .190, rather than bring up Dickerson or make a deal for another fill in.

    Patterson is indicative of a disease.
    Dickerson is likely to be worse than Patterson. Totally overmatched, just like Janish.. That doesn't mean that Patterson is good, but at least Patterson has a small chance to hit. Dickerson and Janish have virtually no chance to hit.

    There is really no internal options at this time to replace Patterson. The Reds are going to have to pick up an OF or two for next year, but they are in a sticky spot. Let's say they pick up a starting caliber OF, with the intention of starting him next year.. Unless Jr or Dunn is sent away, there's no where to play him unless you send Bruce to the bench or AAA. I know some will say to bench Jr, but that's just not going to happen.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  12. #26
    "Let's Roll" TeamBoone's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    This offense is on pace to score 686 runs ... for the entire season. They're on pace to lose 97 runs of offense this season, a drop of a whopping 12.4 percent from last season.

    To use the vernacular of my generation: this offense simply blows.
    What I don't get is that the offense this year isn't that much different from last year: 1B, SS, and CF. That's it!

    Apparently, those that were here last year have declined this year.
    "Enjoy this Reds fans, you are watching a legend grow up before your very eyes" ... DoogMinAmo on Adam Dunn

  13. #27
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    If Dusty was a defense guy then you wouldn't see Javy Valentin playing third base ever or Jerry Hairston Jr. playing shortstop.
    Janish is worse than Patterson, Dusty is trying to score some runs. That's why Harrsion is at SS.

    Not to mention, Janish is pretty much the only backup infielder on the roster. It's kind of nice to have someone that can play infield on the bench.. If the bench is basically just Patterson and Hopper (no infielders), that kind of limits double switches.

    It pretty much is an emergency now. That's why Valentine has been pressed into playing 3b. If EdE was healthy, things would be different ..
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. #28
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    How long is Jocketty going to evaluate before he does something realistic to improve the team? Has he already decided this season is shot? So that he is just going to play the cards that was dealt, while the losing continues?
    The trade market really doesn't heat up until mid-July. Look at historical transactions. It's pretty quite until then.

    Has Dunn's no trade clause expired yet? I forget the date it expires, but that might be holding up action too.

    Walt did what he could with internal options.. He sent down Patterson until injuries forced Patterson's recall. He brought up Bruce. He brought up Bray (I think that was Walt).. I mean, there's nothing left to shuffle.

    I think you will see the big changes in the offseason. Or at least I hope so. It's kind of tough to make moves now. We're pretty much stuck with Wayne's poorly designed roster at this point.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  15. #29
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    I too am feeling utterly frustrated but I am not going to point fingers in Walt's direction yet. He didn't create this mess of an offense. I don't expect him to change things at the non-trading part part of the season. There are a bunch of bad teams (7 or 8 worse than the Reds, and and a half dozen more barely better off). How many are making trades right now? Jocketty didn't create the Cardinal teams that competed for titles in a couple of months after arriving. It won't happen here, either. I sure as heck don't want him blowing holes in what the Reds DO have just to patch a leak or two in a knee-jerk reactive manner.

    Walt's been handed some insurmountable (short-term) problems:

    An Arroyo contract that is looking really horrible as Bronson struggles
    Aaron Harang suddenly suffering mechanical problems and pitching poorly
    The 2/5ths of the starters that were supposed to be solid
    A 5th starter spot that is down to a 22 y/o kid that is going to have struggles
    A 4th starter spot held by a 22 y/o kid who is terrific but still learning on the job
    A relief corps that is quickly becoming overwhelmed by the innings they have to work yet holding together pretty well given their usage and workload

    Two catchers (I'm not even calling Javy a catcher), Ross who can't hit or field and Bako who can't hit and is adequate defensively but not better than average

    A rookie first baseman who hits very well but is learning on the job defensively and may not even be the first baseman of the future. His real spot may well be left field and he'll have to re-learn all over again before long

    A second baseman who should be the shortstop, who kills lefties but can't hit squat against righties and hits 3rd or 4th regardless of who pitches

    A shortstop with no range, who'd be better off at second, who hits well but has been on the DL a chunk of the year. A well paid veteran SS who sits on the DL. A kid SS who can't hit a lick with a pretty good glove. 2 veteran utility guys who should never be near the SS spot who have been on the DL, both hitting better than their career tells you will continue. In summation - shortstop is a hole. Sometimes the glove. Sometimes the bat. Sometimes both.

    A Rfer who has aged faster than expected and it shows. A rookie RFer who plays center sometimes, RF sometimes and is learning on the job at the plate and in the field.
    Bruce will be great but he isn't carrying the team this season. Play out the string with Junior? Try to move him somewhere he wants to go? And finding someone willing to take him given his contract and declining skills.

    Hairston, Patterson, Hopper. Blech. Walt's choices in center are underwhelming. Sure, once the Reds are back in the NL and away from DH, Junior is in right and Bruce in center but that is another stopgap alinement with yet another player in a position he's not best suited for.

    Dunn having an off year. The power and walks are there but Dunner is struggling with contact again. Why wouldn't he? With this lineup he's getting zip to swing at really. And he's another defender worse than average.

    EE at third flashing bat and leather in between cold spells and error streaks. He is still young and may settle down to become terrific as he gets a bit older but not this yera, not to this date anyway.

    Plus the left-right imbalance. Lower than average OBP as a team. Low BA as a team meaning fewer strung together hits to go with the walks, one thing this team does well. A lower than is efficient stolen base pct as a team. A weak, weak bench.
    Bad defense. Shaky rotation. Overworked and quality thin pen. Low OBP contact challenged imbalanced lineup. Dumb baserunning.

    Corey Patterson is a sympton. He's the snot in a bad chest cold. Blowing this nose won't relieve the underlying illness. In fact, the wrong moves made rashly could turn this "cold" into full blown pneumonia. This season is now gone - let Walt move judiciously making deals that work for next season. Moves that may or may not help this year. Get some more kids moved along. A bunch of these guys are in their last year and if WJ can find homes for a couple more like Ross and Freel he should have the room to re-create this team but it ain't gonna happen NOW no matter how frustrated we are or how much we wish there was a magic pill that could suddenly turn into a RH slugger who'd make all our frustrations go away. There isn't one. Face it. As constructed this is a bad team with too many holes and glaring weaknesses and player compromises. If Walt Jocketty turns this mess around quickly then he really does deserve to be called a genius. Without the sarcasm.

  16. #30
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Anybody else upset???????

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Good post, Stormy, and I'll follow that up with something that will make us both sick.

    This offense is on pace to score 686 runs ... for the entire season. They're on pace to lose 97 runs of offense this season, a drop of a whopping 12.4 percent from last season.
    To use the vernacular of my generation: this offense simply blows.
    Cincinnati Reds Splits - 2008
    Code:
    Last 7 Days	 .223 .283 .332 .614 
    April		 .261 .331 .428 .760 
    May		 .263 .339 .417 .755 
    June		 .211 .296 .347 .643
    Basically the same players with an increase of Votto and Bruce. The team has had a lot of one run and two run games.

    A vote of no confidence for the manager and coaches.


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