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Thread: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    The Mariners are in a bad way that might take many years to fix having traded away a significant portion of their farm yet still being saddled with a roster that largely has no chance to compete thanks to multiple years of Bavasi's leadership. At the start of his term they could've rebuilt without a complete tear down given their payroll and the youth they had in the pipes. That notion probably isn't a realistic option now. They're currently in the middle of searching for a new GM (with significant changes in their FO/player development system to no doubt ensue). Jim Riggleman is playing out the season as an interim skipper so both he and the current coaching staff are most likely just enjoying a short ride.

    All of this culminates into a chance that no one on their roster with significant service time is untouchable (even Ichiro).

    So here is the hypothetical:
    1) if you were Jocketty, would you trade for either Felix Hernandez/Ichiro/Bedard/Bettancourt etc?
    2. if no, why not?
    3) if yes, what would you be willing to give up?

    I'd like this to be an open ended thread where everyone feels free to chime in with their thoughts but in order to keep it as high quality as possible here's are just a few caveats to define things: 1) This is a pure rosterbation thread without any rumors to suggest the hypothetical is even remotely a possibility (so to turn it around anyone you might want to target might be fair game), 2) it's not clear that interim GM Lee Pelekoudas even has the authority to move value because obviously anything he does limits the options for the next GM, 3) that said, the Ms would be looking to do something like Beane did with Haren and get quality for the future back-the Ms can afford paying players so they wont dump quality just to move payroll and guys like Clement/Triunfel obviously would be part of their future rather than trade bait, 4) While I'm hoping their FO will move toward the Cleveland model, they might not or they might even just give Pelekoudas the job-that said, not matter who they go with, lets assume the guy Jocketty would be negotiating with is at least competent please.

    With all of that said (sorry it was longer than I intended) is there a fit for the Reds?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I'd come close to emptying the system to get to Felix Hernandez.

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I would love to have King Felix in a Reds uniform but it would take one of Bruce/Cueto/Volquez and I wouldn't do that. If the Mariners would accept a package highlighted by Daryl Thompson plus the Mariners choice of about three or four prospects then heck year I'd do it but my guess is the M's would want one of Bruce, Cueto, or Volquez and that's not something I'd. Ryan Rowland-Smith, Brandon Morrow, and Jeff Clement are other guys I'd like but they're young and cheap and probably unavailable.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    I'd come close to emptying the system to get to Felix Hernandez.
    The Ms probably would ask about Bruce and almost certainly require Votto.

    Would that change your mind? What might you counter with?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I would love to have King Felix in a Reds uniform but it would take one of Bruce/Cueto/Volquez and I wouldn't do that. If the Mariners would accept a package highlighted by Daryl Thompson plus the Mariners choice of about three or four prospects then heck year I'd do it but my guess is the M's would want one of Bruce, Cueto, or Volquez and that's not something I'd. Ryan Rowland-Smith, Brandon Morrow, and Jeff Clement are other guys I'd like but they're young and cheap and probably unavailable.
    The Ms need corner outfielders (who can play defense and who are preferably lefties), a first baseman, defense up the middle, a bat for DH, and probably pitching assuming they'd trade Felix/Bedard. Or they could use a center fielder if they are inclined to move Ichiro back to right.

    They might be inclined to send Wlad back Cincy's way. Certainly though they'd ask about guys like Bruce and Votto. I'm not sure they'd demand Volquez or Cueto.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I like the Mariners. They seem to have pretty good fans and they have one of the best ballparks in baseball. I'd really like to see them turn it around but it's going to take some time due to the awful moves of Bill Bavasi. The signings of Beltre and Sexson were killer and trading Adam Jones and Chris Tillman plus other big talent for Bedard was a bad move especially considering the Mariners weren't a postseason caliber team with or without Bedard. Bavasi made a ton of bad moves and drafting a college reliever with their first round pick this season was just another of those bad decisions. A team with the worst record in baseball shouldn't draft a college reliever. It's going to take some time to turn the Mariners around. Hiring a good GM is crucial for the M's. If I were the Mariners I'd look for a young up and coming GM candidate like Chris Antonetti from the Indians, or Jed Hoyer from the Red Sox, or Mike Rizzo or maybe a Jack Zduriencik from the Brewers. I would trade some of the veterans like Ichiro, Ibanez, Bedard, and Beltre and build the team around King Felix and Jeff Clement.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I'd make Bruce available, but that's just me. I love me some Bruce, but, hey, a chance to get to a pitcher like Hernandez comes along pretty much never. In your hypo, I put Bruce at the top of a package, maybe toss in Cueto, and add in from there in the minors.

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    I'd make Bruce available, but that's just me. I love me some Bruce, but, hey, a chance to get to a pitcher like Hernandez comes along pretty much never. In your hypo, I put Bruce at the top of a package, maybe toss in Cueto, and add in from there in the minors.
    Bruce and Cueto for Hernandez? No way IMO. Call me a homer but I think Cueto can be a similar pitcher to Felix. Trading Bruce and Cueto for Hernandez makes the Reds a worse team because they lose a superstar caliber bat and a potential ace while getting a potential ace in return. I'd love to have Felix Hernandez but I wouldn't deal Bruce/Cueto/Volquez for him.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Ichiro would be great, but I can't see him leaving Seattle unless it's for New York , Boston, or maybe LA. There is simply no way I would trade Jay Bruce and probably not Votto or Cueto. I would trade Thompson, but I don't think he would get you much. The Reds just don't have enough to go out and get top tier stars. They need to trade for some young guys that project to be those stars.

    I also can't imagine any scenario that Seattle would trade Felix Hernandez that didn't include Edinson Volquez or Jay Bruce plus a lot more.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I like the Mariners. They seem to have pretty good fans and they have one of the best ballparks in baseball. I'd really like to see them turn it around but it's going to take some time due to the awful moves of Bill Bavasi. The signings of Beltre and Sexson were killer and trading Adam Jones and Chris Tillman plus other big talent for Bedard was a bad move especially considering the Mariners weren't a postseason caliber team with or without Bedard. Bavasi made a ton of bad moves and drafting a college reliever with their first round pick this season was just another of those bad decisions. A team with the worst record in baseball shouldn't draft a college reliever. It's going to take some time to turn the Mariners around. Hiring a good GM is crucial for the M's. If I were the Mariners I'd look for a young up and coming GM candidate like Chris Antonetti from the Indians, or Jed Hoyer from the Red Sox, or Mike Rizzo or maybe a Jack Zduriencik from the Brewers. I would trade some of the veterans like Ichiro, Ibanez, Bedard, and Beltre and build the team around King Felix and Jeff Clement.
    As an Ms fan, i'll be bitterly disappointed if they go with "more of the same but with a different name". They've got the resources to new school one up on the Clevelands and Tampas because the Ms can afford to blow money leveraging the international scouting/development program they already excel at (i.e. give a 16 yo $4 when Cincy is only willing to go $3M), the money to break ranks with philosophy on a free agent or by absorbing someone else's bad contract occasionally, and generally just pour money into all aspects they need too.

    My short list is Antonetti for a complete pendulum swing (in the direction of my bias), Towers as a really nice compromise that a conservative ownership might be more comfortable with and finally if not those two, Depodesta.

    Concerning trading Felix, I'd cry if he got traded (though watching him in Cincy would make me smile) but looking at their roster, only the King would likely bring back a king's ransom and the Ms need a rapid infusion of near major league ready talent.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I don't know if there is a perfect fit on that roster other than the obvious upgrades. I would think that Felix would ultimately cost us perhaps too many building blocks. It wouldn't necc. stop me from making an offer for him but I don't think I could offer enough without it costing me Bruce or Volquez. I mean we could expect that they would highly consider some sort of Thompson/Votto/Frazier deal but ultimately it would probably cost more even. Felix is still only 22 himself and probably thee most talented young pitcher in baseball.

    Maybe they would do something like this.

    Cueto, Votto, Frazier & Janish

    For

    Felix & Betancourt

    But I kinda doubt it, we'd likely have to throw something else in better than Janish and still include him (no biggie). The problem is Felix will be hitting FA in '10 whereas Cueto has 3 more years past that and for that reason could be nearly as valuable overall. I don't know if I make that deal but my guess is that would be the minimum that they would take for him. They might ask for say Roenicke in addition to this.
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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpup View Post
    Ichiro would be great, but I can't see him leaving Seattle unless it's for New York , Boston, or maybe LA. There is simply no way I would trade Jay Bruce and probably not Votto or Cueto. I would trade Thompson, but I don't think he would get you much. The Reds just don't have enough to go out and get top tier stars. They need to trade for some young guys that project to be those stars.

    I also can't imagine any scenario that Seattle would trade Felix Hernandez that didn't include Edinson Volquez or Jay Bruce plus a lot more.
    Ya. Ichiro is an expensive acquisition because the team acquiring him would likely have to give up some significant talent for the right to pay him market rates. I think he'd be a great addition to the Reds but I can see many reasons why he wouldn't be a good fit as a trade.

    No doubt Felix would be expensive in trade.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Johjima for pitching? If Arroyo were pitching better, it might make a little sense. But both have contracts their teams would like to shed, and they would fill needs.

    It has always struck me that the Ms seem to have an exec or two and ownership who are cited as hurdles a GM must clear before making significant personnel moves. I don't see them as a team that will readily remake their roster, but I could be wrong.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Johjima for pitching? If Arroyo were pitching better, it might make a little sense. But both have contracts their teams would like to shed, and they would fill needs.

    It has always struck me that the Ms seem to have an exec or two and ownership who are cited as hurdles a GM must clear before making significant personnel moves. I don't see them as a team that will readily remake their roster, but I could be wrong.
    I'd characterize Lincoln and Armstrong more as enablers than meddlers. While the Ms certainly market/brand themselves a certain way that may mitigate a personnel decision (like Raul being the face of "family friendliness"/Ichiro being resigned in part because of the Asian impact) a GM for the Ms probably isn't under more pressure from Nintendo than any other GM-they all have to work with ownership probably more than they'd prefer. My guess is that the Ms attendance issues this year will give a new GM a lot of room for independence.

    It's hard to look at Seattle as anything other than a pretty attractive job opportunity for a prospective GM given payroll/international scouting/issues related to the market.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Here's a hypothetical (a trade thread)....

    I'd offer the M's a chance to gain some talent and dump a salary or two in the process for the privilege of gaining the King. I'd go Dunn, Votto, Cueto, Encarnacion for King Felix, Richie Sexson and Wlad.

    If the M's have the money to spend, they could pull in a legitimate slugger in Dunn, with the opportunity to get him a long-term deal. Dunn could certainly clear the walls at Safeco and transition to 1B/DH as he crosses 30. Votto, Cueto and Encarnacion are major-league ready talents, but Votto and Encarnacion are potentially replaceable for the Reds with Frazier and Alonso in the pipeline.


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