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Thread: Reds historical depth chart

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Reds historical depth chart

    This is a question for some of the historians on here. If you were to create a Reds three deep depth chart, what would it look like? I'm going to make one based on stats but I'd love to hear from the folks were lucky enough to watch some of these guys in action. Here is my list....feel free to post yours.

    Catcher

    Johnny Bench - easy pick here. Hall of Famer. 14 time All-Star. 1968 NL rookie of the year. Twice won the NL MVP. 1976 World Series MVP. Two World Series rings and 10 Gold Glove award winner. 389 career homeruns is most in Reds history.

    Ernie Lombardi - another Hall of Famer but not quite as good as Bench. Played for the Reds from 1932-1942. Won the 1940 World Series. 8-time All-Star selections. 1938 NL MVP. Career .306/.357/.460 hitter with 190 carere homeruns.

    Bubbles Hargrave - this spot come down to Smoky Burgess and Hargrave and I gave the edge to Hargrave who is a career .310/.363/.452 hitter. Hargrave won the 1926 NL batting title with a .353 batting average.

    First Base

    Tony Perez - Hall of Famer. Two World Series titles with Reds. 7-time All-Star selections. 1967 All-Star game MVP. Third most homeruns in Reds history with 287.

    Ted Kluszewski - A four-time All-Star who averaged 43 homeruns a year from 1953-1956. Holds the Reds single season homerun record for a left handed hitter with 49 homeruns in 1954. His 251 homeruns as a Red are the fifth most in team history.

    Lee May - Two time All-Star as a Red. Three consecutive 30+ homerun seasons with the Reds from 1969-1971. Finished 12th in MVP voting in 1971. Reds Hall of Famer.

    Second Base

    Joe Morgan - easy selection here. Hall of Famer. 10-time All-Star selections. Two times World Series champ and two time NL MVP. 1972 All-Star game MVP. Career .271/.392/.427 hitter.

    Bid McPhee - Spent all 18 of his major league seasons with the Reds. Inducted into Hall of Fame in 2000. Hit .271/.355/.372 for his career. Owns the second most career walks in Reds history and is the Reds all-time stolen base leader with 568 stolen bases.

    Johnny Temple - Played from 1952-1959 with Reds. Four time All-Star and finished 14th in MVP voting in 1958.

    Shortstop

    Barry Larkin - Obviously a great position in Reds history but Larkin tops the list for me. He's one of the few on this list I've actually seen play and he was always a favorite of mine. 12-time All-Star selections. 1995 NL MVP. First 30/30 shortstop in baseball history. Three Gold Gloves and 1990 World Series winner.

    Dave Concepcion - Probably would rank number one in most organizations but not the Reds. Five time Gold Glover and one of the best defensive shortstops of all time. 9-time All-Star and two time World Series winner.

    Leo Cardenas - five time All-Star and 1965 Gold Glove winner. Led the league in 1965 and 1966 in intentional walks. He tied an AL record for assists by a shortstop in 1969 (570). Member of Reds Hall of Fame.

    Third Base

    Pete Rose - Rose could probably be placed at 1B or LF but he played 634 career games at 3B so I'll put him here. All-time hit leader. 17-time All-Star and 1973 NL MVP winner. Also won two gold gloves in LF in 1969 and 1970. Led NL in OBP twice.

    Heinie Groh - 1919 World Series champion with the Reds. Played from 1913-1921 with Reds. Career .292/.373/.384 hitter.

    Billy Werber - Third base may be the weakest position in Reds history. Werber is Reds Hall of Famer though he only spent three seasons with the Reds from 1939-1941. Won the 1940 World Series.

    Left Field

    Frank Robinson - easy choice here. In the baseball Hall of Fame. His 324 homeruns rank second most in Reds history. 1956 NL rookie of the year. Two time MVP including one with the Reds. 14-time All-Star. Seventh most homeruns in baseball history with 586. Highest OPS in Reds history at .943.

    Adam Dunn - only the second player on this chart that I've seen play. Dunn ranks fourth on the Reds all-time homerun list with 256 homeruns and counting. Also ranks sixth in walks with 738 and second in team OPS at .898 only behind Frank Robinson.

    George Foster - 5-time All-Star and 1977 NL MVP award winner. Sixth most homeruns in Reds history with 244 and holds the Reds single season homerun record with 52 homeruns in 1977.

    Center Field

    Eric Davis - Two time All-Star and three time Gold Glove winner. If not for injuries would probably have been in Cooperstown. Owns the fourth highest OPS in Reds history at .877. Had one of the greatest seasons in Reds history in 1987 with a .293/.399/.593 statline and 37 homeruns/50 stolen bases. One of the best athletes I've seen.

    Edd Roush - this was a tough decision for me but I chose to put Davis at number one. Roush is in Cooperstown. He was considered one of the best hitters during the Deadball Era. Spent the majority of his career with the Reds finished with a career .323/.369/.446 line. His .331 batting average with the Reds is the second best in team history.

    Cy Seymour - Played for the Reds from 1902-1906. His .332 batting average is the highest in Reds history. He won the NL batting title in 1905 with a .377 batting average.

    Right Field

    Wally Post - Played for the Reds 1949,1951-1957, 1960-1963. He hit a combined 76 homeruns in 1955 and 1956 and finished 12th in MVP voting in 1955.

    Ival Goodman - Played from 1935 to 1942 with the Reds. Two time All-Star in 1938 and 1939 and finished second in homeruns in 1938 with 30 homers.

    Ken Griffey Sr - Three time All-Star and finished eighth in MVP voting in 1976. He hit .303 in 1,224 games for the Reds, six times hit at least .300 and three times recorded at least 20 stolen bases in a season.

    Right-Handed Starting Pitchers

    Paul Derringer - third most wins in Reds history. Had four 20-win seasons with the Reds and won the 1940 World Series. Six time All-Star.

    Bucky Walters - During the Reds two pennants in 1939-40, Walters went 49-21 with a 2.38 ERA. His 160 wins rank as the 4th most in Reds history. He's a seven time All-Star and won the 1939 NL MVP.

    Ewell Blackwell - Six time All-Star and three times finished in the top five in ERA.

    Left-Handed Starting Pitchers

    Eppa Rixey - most wins in Reds history with 179. Rixey had an amazing 290 career complete games and a 3.15 ERA.

    Noodles Hahn - 2.55 career ERA is 46th best all-time.

    Johnny Vander Meer - only pitcher to throw back-to-back no-hitters. WOn 1940 World Series and led the National League in strikeouts (202, 186 & 174) in 1941, 1942 and 1943.

    Relief pitchers

    Rob Dibble

    Clay Carroll
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 06-28-2008 at 07:31 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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  3. #2
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    At a quick glance I would replace Ewell Blackwell with Mario Soto and maybe Johnny Vander Meer with Don Gullett.

    I also would probally add Pedro Borbon and John Franco in place of Rob Dibble and Clay Carroll.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Ed Bailey would be another candidate for the third catcher, but I'm OK with Hargrave.

    The third 1B would be a tough choice between Lee May and Frank McCormick.

    The third SS is also a tough choice between Leo Cardenas and Roy McMillan, but I'm OK with Cardenas.

    I would actually go with Chris Sabo over Billy Werber at 3B.

    I would also go with both Vada Pinson and Gus Bell over Cy Seymour in CF. Pinson would be my choice on the three-deep chart.

    I would also go with Dave Parker over Ival Goodman in RF.
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  5. #4
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    This is why I was hoping for feedback because I knew I would a brain cramp and forget someone and sure enough I did. I completely forgot Pinson and Parker.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  6. #5
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Good thread, OBM. Here's a quick depth chart I came up with on minimal research, and I'll expand it to go five deep (will be tough in a few spots):

    Catcher

    Johnny Bench
    Ernie Lombardi
    Bubbles Hargrave
    Ed Bailey
    Smoky Burgess


    First Base

    Tony Perez
    Ted Kluszewski
    Jake Beckley
    Frank McCormick
    John Reilly


    Second Base

    Joe Morgan
    Bid McPhee
    Lonnie Frey
    Johnny Temple
    Miller Huggins


    Third Base

    Heinie Groh
    Chris Sabo
    Grady Hatton
    Billy Werber
    Aaron Boone (yep, seriously Aaron Boone ... also, there's a good chance Edwin Encarnacion makes this list within the next 1-2 years if he sticks around)


    Shortstop

    Barry Larkin
    Davey Concepcion
    Leo Cardenas
    Billy Myers
    Roy McMillan


    Left Field

    Pete Rose
    George Foster
    Adam Dunn
    Bob Bescher
    Chick Hafey


    Center Field

    Edd Roush
    Eric Davis
    Vada Pinson
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Cy Seymour


    Right Field

    Frank Robinson
    Ken Griffey Sr.
    Ival Goodman
    Wally Post
    Reggie Sanders


    Right Handed Starter

    Bucky Walters
    Dolf Luque
    Paul Derringer
    Jose Rijo
    Jim Maloney


    Left-Handed Starters

    Eppa Rixey
    Noodles Hahn
    Johnny Vander Meer
    Don Gullett


    Relief Pitchers

    John Franco
    Clay Carroll
    Joe Beggs
    Scott Williamson
    Scott Sullivan
    Last edited by Cyclone792; 06-28-2008 at 08:35 PM.
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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Good list Cyclone. Only one minor correction. Jim Maloney was a RH starter, not a lefty. He did hit left-handed though.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  8. #7
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Good list Cyclone. Only one minor correction. Jim Maloney was a RH starter, not a lefty. He did hit left-handed though.
    Doh, that's what I get for drinking beer this afternoon.
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    Put an end to the Lost Decade.

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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Nice OBM. I don't know much about pre-BRM days but I do think I would put KGJ as the 3rd CF. Even though he has not been close to what the Reds had hoped he still has hit 200+ HR's w/ the Reds.

    How much longer until Phillips and EdE have to play at current level to kick the "weak" third place guy off?

  10. #9
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    I think we can all pretty much agree that third base has been the weakest position in Reds history. I cheated and put Pete Rose there but he probably belongs in left field. Like Cyclone said, a few solid seasons from Edwin Encarnacion and he'll move into the top two or three at that position. The toughest spots for me were center field and starting pitchers.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  11. #10
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Catcher

    Bench*
    Lombardi
    Hargrave

    1st Base

    Perez*
    Klusewski*
    McCormick

    2nd base

    Morgan*
    Temple*
    Rose*

    3rd base

    Groh
    Hutton
    Deron Johnson*

    Shortstop

    Larkin*
    Concepcion*
    Cardenas*

    Left field

    Robinson*
    Foster*
    Dunn*

    Center Field

    Davis*
    Pinson*
    Roush

    Right field

    Griffey Sr.*
    Post*
    Parker*

    RHSP

    Seaver*
    Rijo*
    Maloney*

    LHSP

    Rixey
    Vander Meer
    Gullett*

    Relief Pitcher

    Franco*
    Carroll*
    Sullivan*
    (With honorable mention to Jim Brosnan*)

    * - Those I actually saw play at either Crosley, Cinergy, or GABP
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    SSG, Red Army Choir Guacarock's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    He wouldn't place in the top three, but Joe Nuxhall belongs among the Reds' best left-handed starting pitchers if you expand this depth chart to 4-5 players. Gullett did have some better seasons, but Nuxhall's career spanned 15 years, with 2,302 innings pitched.

    Although that's not up there in Dolf Luque or Bucky Walters territory, Nuxhall was much more of a horse than other pitchers making these lists. Joe stuck out 1,372, compiled a lieftime 3.95 ERA, made two All-Star appearances, and compiled a 130-109 W-L record -- not bad at all pitching for a club that at the time was pretty weak and prone to lose.

    In addition to Nuxhall, a valid argument could be advanced that Mario Soto belongs among the Reds' most elite right-handed starters. The cumulative stats for Rijo and Maloney look better, but anyone who saw all three of them pitch can attest: When Soto was spot-on, he was easily an equal to Rijo or Maloney.

    Wonder which of the Reds' young studs will eventually make this pantheon?

  13. #12
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Love it!

    C: Bench, Lombardi, Hargrave

    1B: Perez, Big Klu, McCormick

    2B: Morgan, McPhee, Frey

    SS: Larkin, Concepcion, Cardenas

    3B: Rose (I cheat too), Groh, Werber

    LF: Foster, Dunn, Bescher

    CF: Roush, Pinson, E. Davis (Denorfia honorable mention per Redszone)

    RF: Robinson, Goodman, Post

    RHP: Walters, Derringer, Maloney

    LHP: Rixey, Hahn, Gullett

    RP: Carroll, Borbon, Sullivan

    Bench Jockeys: Jerry Lynch, Chico Ruiz, Ryan Freel
    Last edited by mth123; 06-29-2008 at 04:24 AM.
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    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    I see a couple people have caught it without mentioning it specifically, but Frank Robinson played right field during his time with the Reds. I don't think I ever saw him in left field at Crosley.

    Also, I guess you're basing this on their performance as a Red, not total career performance...otherwise guys like KGJ, Tom Seaver, and Christy Mathewson would get a lot more support.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra

  15. #14
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion View Post
    I see a couple people have caught it without mentioning it specifically, but Frank Robinson played right field during his time with the Reds. I don't think I ever saw him in left field at Crosley.
    Actually, Frank Robinson made 697 appearances in LF as a Red, compared to 533 appearances in RF. Robinson didn't play his first game in RF until 1961.


    Appearances by position as a Red:
    LF - 697
    RF - 533
    1B - 228
    CF - 101
    3B - 13
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  16. #15
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds historical depth chart

    Quote Originally Posted by WebScorpion View Post
    I see a couple people have caught it without mentioning it specifically, but Frank Robinson played right field during his time with the Reds. I don't think I ever saw him in left field at Crosley.

    Also, I guess you're basing this on their performance as a Red, not total career performance...otherwise guys like KGJ, Tom Seaver, and Christy Mathewson would get a lot more support.
    Mathewson had exactly 1 start as a Red... I'm surprised he's not in the Reds HOF with the uber famous Rube Bressler


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