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Thread: How would you rebuild this team?

  1. #1
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    How would you rebuild this team?

    Seeing how Griffey and Dunn will not be here next year, either by trade or just being allowed to walk, the Reds will need 2 more starting outfielders to go with Jay Bruce next year. Are you comfortable enough with Hairston? With Freel? Do you move Votto to LF and feel comfortable with him there? Who would then play 1B? What to do about SS since Gonzalez is most likely out?

    Here are the positions that are a lock:

    2B - Brandon Phillips (RH) (current age 28)
    3B - Edwin Encarnacion (RH) (age 25)
    RF - Jay Bruce (LH) (age 21)
    SS - plenty of options or do you go get someone else?
    1B - Votto or someone else?

    Where to play them or do you keep them?:
    (LH) - Joey Votto (1B or LF?) (age 24)
    (RH) - Jeff Keppinger (1B, SS, 3B, or OF?) (age 28)
    (RH) - Jerry Hairston (SS, 3B, CF?) (age 32)
    (RH) - Andy Phillips (Utility guy?) (age 31)
    (LH) - Corey Patterson (OF) (will be 29 in a month)
    (RH) - Ryan Freel (OF) (age 32) - currently on DL
    (RH) - Norris Hopper (OF) (age 29) - season ending surgery
    (RH) - Jolbert Cabrera (SS - Utility man) (age 36) - currently on DL
    (RH) - Paul Janish (SS - Utility Man) (age 25) - Triple AAA
    (LH) - Chris Dickerson (OF) (age 26) - Triple AAA
    (LH) - Rob Mackowiak (OF) (age 32) - Triple AAA

    Catchers?
    (LH) Paul Bako (36)
    (RH) David Ross (31)
    (SH) Javier Valentin (32)
    (RH) Ryan Hannigan (27) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Alvin Colina (26) - Triple AAA

    Gone?
    (LH) Adam Dunn (LF) (28)
    (LH) Ken Griffey Jr. (RF) (will be 39 in November)
    (RH) Alex Gonzalez - (SS) (season ending surgery - 1 year rehab atleast - most likely will not play in '09)

    Starting Pitching:
    (RH) Aaron Harang (30)
    (RH) Bronson Arroyo (31)
    (RH) Johnny Cueto (22)
    (RH) Edinson Volquez (25 as of yesterday)
    (RH) Homer Bailey (22) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Matt Belisle (28) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Darryl Thompson (22) - Triple AAA
    (LH) Matt Maloney (24) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Josh Fogg (31) - Triple AAA
    (LH) Ben Jukich (25) - Double AA - 7-3, 2.96 e.r.a.
    (RH) Sam LeCure (24) - Double AA - 7-4, 3.46 e.r.a.

    Bullpen:
    (LH) Jeremy Affeldt (29)
    (LH) Bill Bray (25)
    (RH) Jared Burton (27)
    (RH) Francisco Cordero (33)
    (RH) Mike Lincoln (33)
    (RH) Gary Majewski (28)
    (RH) David Weathers (will be 39 in September)
    (RH) Todd Coffey (27) - Triple AAA
    (LH) Danny Herrera (23) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Marcus McBeth (27) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Josh Roenicke (25) - Triple AAA
    (RH) Robert Manuel (25) - Double AA - 1.20 e.r.a, 45 IP, 57 K's, .181 opp BA

    Position Players I keep:
    (RF) Jay Bruce
    (3B) EE
    (2B) Phillips
    (1B or LF) Votto
    (SS or CF - or keep around in case of injuries) Hairston
    (SS, 1B, or maybe OF?) Keppinger

    Position Player I let go or trade:
    (OF) Corey Patterson - should have been gone awhile ago
    (OF) Ryan Freel - I'd like to free up his salary - he's an injury waiting to happen
    (OF) Norris Hopper - can't we do better and get someone with a little pop?


    Indifferent as backups:
    Jobert Cabrera - he is 36 years old - we could probably do better going younger
    Andy Phillips - solid, but he's really a Third Baseman
    Paul Janish - I thought he looked overmatched at the plate

    Starting Pitching:
    Very hard to project with Arroyo and Harang supposedly available for the right return. If both are traded, the Reds are back to square one. I won't miss Arroyo. But Harang would leave a big void. I really don't want to trade Aaron unless we got good return in terms of solid mulitiple pitching prospects.

    Harang
    Volquez
    Cueto
    ???
    ??? - Free Agency? Not much out there.

    Bullpen:
    Release or trade the following - Majewski, Weathers
    Trade Affeldt if you get good return or you know he will walk after the season. The problem is, he is one of only two lefthanded relievers in the bullpen and he has been pretty solid against lefties.

    Bray, Burton and Cordero look to be the backbone of the bullpen. I would have liked to have kept Affeldt for situational against lefties too, but probably won't happen. So more than likely, we are looking to fill 3 or 4 spots. Not as easy as it looks.

    Pitching overall:
    If Arroyo is traded, we have atleast 2 question marks in the rotation again. We have alot of potential options in the minors, but we'd be looking at another season of growing pains, IMHO.

    Bullpen - solid is the backbone, but have question marks after that.

    Infield - 2B, 3B are already determined and we have plenty of options at SS (Keppinger or Hairston) and 1B (Votto or Keppinger)

    Outfield - Bruce and possibly Hairston and who else? Move Votto to the OF?

    Offfense:
    LH Power: Bruce and Votto are going to be counted on to hit atleast 20-25 HR's and provide the LH power.

    RH Power: Phillips and EE? I think both should hit about 20+ HR's.

    RH Hit for average: Keppinger

    RH speed: Hairston, Phillips

    This team has 4 potential 20-30 HR guys in Votto, Bruce, Phillips, and EE. No big huge 30-50 HR guy.

    Speed: Phillips as a starter, Hairston to be determined.

    Offensively this team needs some more speed guys and maybe one 30+ HR hitter. We lose two LH power hitters, and may need to replace one, but I don't see anything out there. Personally, I'd rather have a RH power hitter and hope Votto and Bruce can provide the rest from the LH side.

    Things I would consider:
    1. Signing or trading for Pat Burrell. Some have said he's another Adam Dunn, but the stats don't necessarily back that up. Burrell played nearly 60 games at 1B in 2000 and could probably be moved there permanently. He K's somewhat less than Dunn and walks almost as much. Hits for a little better average. I think he is better than Dunn, but just my opinion. And it may come down to him being more of a baseball player than Adam, because Adam has the rep of not caring much about baseball, and I've never heard that about Burrell. Burrell seems pretty competitive to me.
    2. IF they don't sign a power bat to play 1B, then I stick Keppinger on 1B, reminiscent of Keith Hernandez. A solid average hitting guy on 1B.
    2. This means we'd move Votto to LF. Hope he can handle it.
    3. This means Keppinger plays SS if we sign a Burrell type player.
    4. Need another OFer. Preferably speed.
    5. Need a SS if Keppinger plays 1B. Gonzo is out. Hairston isn't getting any younger. Wish we could steal Reyes from the Mets - good OBP, steals, hits .280-.300.

    Thoughts?
    Who's on first?

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I think a lot of people on here undervalue Keppinger. He continues to impress me both offensively and defensively and I would like to see him in the Reds' future, whether it be at SS, 1b if Votto is to move to LF, or at least as a frequent stand in from the bench in various positions. I know he happens to be in a bit of an ofer streak at the moment, but it seems like 9 out of 10 times he makes an out it's just because he hit it hard right at somebody. I don't remember the last time the guy struckout.

    I would also like to see Hairston resigned. I'm sure he won't become a .340 lifetime hitter, but if he continues to hit well the rest of this year why not sign him to a cheap contract and let him play until his play declines, if it ever does. Best case scenario: he has discovered his true ability and can be our everyday CF and leadoff hitter with Bruce in RF and Dunn/a new pickup in LF. More reasonably he could be a cheaper Ryan Freel with a more consistent bat and smarter defense and baserunning.

    Griffey I think 100% needs to go. The two big questions to me are Dunn and Arroyo. If Dunn does not get traded this year I think they should resign him as long as the bidding doesn't get outrageous. I wouldn't be satisfied with just dumping his salary for picks. The best way to make that reasonable seems to be to dump Arroyo's salary for a decent OF/C/prospect. If we can't trade Dunn or Arroyo then I guess we'll take the picks because Dunn's salary will probably be unaffordable.

    For pitching: Locked in:
    Harang, Volquez, Cueto
    Possible 4/5:
    Arroyo/Fogg/Thompson or Bailey/Belisle if they somehow make major improvements.

    Bullpen:
    Bray, Burton, Cordero. Maybe keep Affeldt. Give Herrera and Roenocke a whirl.

    So -
    1b: Keppinger/Votto
    2b: Phillips
    SS: Keppinger/Janish
    3b: Edwin
    RF: Bruce
    CF: Hairston/New Pickup
    LF: Dunn/Votto/New Pickup
    C: Hell if I know. Complete overhaul.

    Any position players not listed above I can do without. The bench could use a lot of new faces.

  4. #3
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I agree with most of what you said except Dunn. I'd let him walk and take the comp picks. This team has done nothing with Adam, and I think it goes beyond arguing stats. Same with Griffey. There is more to this.

    When an a prevalent attitude of losing has gone on for 5 or 10 years, you need to boot the veterans who have been here that long, because I think they get complacent.

    It's time to move on to the young guys who have desire and fire. Also, then you consider guys like Keppinger who have never gotten a shot and then Cincy gives it to him. I think he is a winner. His current slump is just getting back into the groove of things after coming off the DL. They have to find a place for Kepp.

    I agree about Hairston. Sign him, give him a chance until he proves otherwise.

    I think people need to think more long term on this board. People say that freeing up all that salary won't do any good because the free agent market stinks this year..........but what about the year after that? Plus, all these young guys will need another year of seasoning atleast. I wouldn't expect big things in '09..........except for some improvement. If the team would do better than expected, you could always make some moves at the trading deadline to better your team.

    Let Dunn and Griffey walk. Trade Arroyo. Free up all that salary.

    1B Votto or eventually Yonder
    2B Phillips
    SS Keppinger
    3B EE
    LF Free Agent or eventually Votto
    CF Hairston or Free Agent or Trade
    RF Bruce

    You also have Frazier blazing his way through the minor leagues and a few others at high A who should be in Double A next year.
    Who's on first?

  5. #4
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I'd like to keep Hairston, Keppinger Freel, Mackowiak, Dunn and the list of the young guys that are locks.

    I think Hairston has earned the right to be the everyday CF next season. A bench with Mackowiak, Freel, and say, Valentin; and whoever else can make the team, should be a good bench.

    Everyone else can go offensively.

    Pitching, it sould be this:

    Volquez
    Harang
    Cueto
    Thompson
    Bailey

    Bullpen

    Bray
    Majewski
    Herrera
    You'll need 2 or 3 free agents
    Burton (closer)

    Cordero, Arroyo, Affeldt, Weathers should be used to try and acquire a young catcher who could catch 120 games next season and some more bench depth.
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    1. Dunn and Jr. ride off into the sunset taking their 30 million dollars with them next year.

    2. Sign C.C. Sab. for 5 years and $$ around 85 to 100 million. Bronson is gone.

    3. Sign a right handed power bat, who can either play a very good outfield, or 1b allowing Votto to play lf. Where he would be a very good defensive outfielder, he has good speed.

    4. Dump Corey Patterson, and sign a better player is Joey the guy?

    5. The Bullpen should be Bray, Burton, and Cordero. Then add in Roenicke and another Minor guy we have several on the way here. Resign Weathers, Affedlt, and Lincoln. This should be a very good pen next year when Stormy is coming in 5th and 6th innings instead of the 8th.

    6. Resign Backo and dump Valetine and Ross. Promote the guy from AAA.

    I think just having an outfield of Votto, Bruce, and a gold glove centerfielder would lower the team era by a .5. The Reds for the last 7 years have led the league in extra based hits because of no range Dunn and Jr.

    The infield is solid, adding a RH power hitting 1b is key. ¨hey is albert available¨

    Starting pitching would be really strong. The top 3 would be the best in the majors with Cueto at 4 and Thompson at 5.

    This years draft was a very good one in college relief pitching for the Reds. The kid Stewart has an outside shot next year to make the team. He should be in AA before the end of the year, and there are a couple of more guys playing really well right now.

    The key though is CC and a powerhitting 1b.
    Last edited by bellhead; 07-05-2008 at 02:30 PM.

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    Quote Originally Posted by bellhead View Post
    1. Dunn and Jr. ride off into the sunset taking their 30 million dollars with them next year.

    2. Sign C.C. Sab. for 5 years and $$ around 85 to 100 million. Bronson is gone.

    3. Sign a right handed power bat, who can either play a very good outfield, or 1b allowing Votto to play lf. Where he would be a very good defensive outfielder, he has good speed.

    4. Dump Corey Patterson, and sign a better player is Joey the guy?

    5. The Bullpen should be Bray, Burton, and Cordero. Then add in Roenicke and another Minor guy we have several on the way here. Resign Weathers, Affedlt, and Lincoln. This should be a very good pen next year when Stormy is coming in 5th and 6th innings instead of the 8th.

    6. Resign Backo and dump Valetine and Ross. Promote the guy from AAA.

    I think just having an outfield of Votto, Bruce, and a gold glove centerfielder would lower the team era by a .5. The Reds for the last 7 years have led the league in extra based hits because of no range Dunn and Jr.

    The infield is solid, adding a RH power hitting 1b is key. ¨hey is albert available¨

    Starting pitching would be really strong. The top 3 would be the best in the majors with Cueto at 4 and Thompson at 5.

    This years draft was a very good one in college relief pitching for the Reds. The kid Stewart has an outside shot next year to make the team. He should be in AA before the end of the year, and there are a couple of more guys playing really well right now.

    The key though is CC and a powerhitting 1b.
    If i'm not mistaken CC turned down a 5 year $100 mill. offer from cleveland. Honestly i don't think he's worth that kind of money, he could also be the type that has an early end to his career because he doesn't take care of his body.

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    C.C. is going West Coast

  9. #8
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    CC definitely is not the answer. The idea of dumping salaries of Dunn/Arroyo is to sign a number of solid free agents to fill potential voids in the outfield and at catcher, not to blow it all on a big name free agent. That doesn't leave us in a better situation. A decent upgrade in CC over Arroyo, but what about Dunn's spot? We're not looking to replace two of our biggest salaries with one bigger salary.

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I let Dunn and Griffey walk, sign Milton Bradley, Furcal and see if I can get Ben Sheets (only way that is possible is if Reds can find someone to take most of Bronson's contract)

    Dunn 13 million
    Griffey 12 million
    Bronson will be making around 10 mill
    Patterson 3.5 million
    Ross 2.5 million
    Weathers 2.5 million

    You could replace Cpatt, Ross, Weathers, Griffey and Bronson with guys making the min. and get the same results. Dunn, well, it's time for a change.

    Sheets 16-17 million
    Furcal 13 million
    Bradley 9-10 million

    You could have those guys for roughly the same as Dunn, Griffey, Bronson and Cpatt. Just replace cpatt with a rook. making the minimum.


    Lineup:

    Furcal SS
    Hairston Cf
    Bradley Lf
    Votto 1st
    Phillips 2nd
    Bruce 3rd
    EE/Kepp third
    Whoever you can find at catcher (I'm not sure if anyone good is really avail.)


    Pitching

    Sheets
    Harang
    Volquez
    Cueto
    Bailey/Thompson/Maloney???--I'd imagine one of those three would turn it up to make a 5

    Bullpen
    Cordero
    Burton
    Bray
    Roenicke
    Free agent pick up

  11. #10
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    is sheets a free agent? i'd be afraid to throw $ at him anyway because of how often he's injured.

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    Yes, he is, and due to that injury history he'll be less costly then CC, I know it's a risk. This team has sunk 6 million combined this year into CPatt and Stanton, I don't mind risking about 10 million more than that for a few years on someone who if healthy could make this team a contender.


    And the whole Ben Sheets is always hurt thing is somewhat overblown. He gets hurt, sure, but it's not huge arm injuries.

    Since 2002 Sheets has pitched less then 141.00 innings exactly one season, that was in 2006 when he still threw over 100 innings.

    Even if he has nagging injuries, there are much worse things than getting 170 innings out of Ben Sheets.
    Last edited by NeilHamburger; 07-05-2008 at 04:28 PM.

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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    i wonder if francouer would be availible since they sent him down

  14. #13
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I was all for spending big bucks on free agent top pitchers, but after seeing Johan Santana's results, I feel differently. He's not pitching badly and his era is around 3.00. But he is 7-7 and has been nothing close to unhittable. I agree about Sabathia's body and have changed my mind about signing him. I also am afraid of Sheets injury history.

    I'd rather bring along the young hungry guys who are fighting for big contracts.
    Who's on first?

  15. #14
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    I think the key is adding players who have strong fundamentals. I would love to see the Reds sign Orlando Cabrera in the offseason. Cabrera might have lost a bit at the plate, but he still is one of the best leaders of an infield in the game. That is why the White Sox got him, to be provide stability to their infield. Because of his age, and his declining offense, he would be affordable.

    Another choice would be Furcal. He would cost a lot more, but Dusty would love to have him. A SS who can lead off. And he is one of the best defensive SS in the game today.

    If a new SS is signed, I would move Kepp to third, EE to first and Votto to LF (or Kepp at first and EE stays at third).

    I don't think the Reds can compete with the infield they have. It is killing them on defense. Not even as much with errors, but with not covering the right bag, not turning the double play, not throwing to the right base, not backing up the right base....etc. The first and foremost thing I would do is rebuild the infield so that it is defensively and fundamentally sound. Without that, everything else would be futile.

  16. #15
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    Re: How would you rebuild this team?

    furcal isnt going 2 be worth the huge money he would get he is good when he plays but he is injured alot


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