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Thread: The Reds need more defense

  1. #1
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    The Reds need more defense

    Given some recent threads, I figured what the heck......


    Debate/discuss?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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  3. #2
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Given some recent threads, I figured what the heck......


    Debate/discuss?
    totally agree. the reds can afford one weak glove but we have subpar defenders everywhere. that is why we are 2nd worst in the league defensively.

    Griffey goes soon & whoever replaces him will be an upgrade. Hopefully it is a good glove in CF with Bruce moving to RF thus upgrading two positions.

    Phillips is awesome at 2B.

    Our catchers, Votto, Kep/Hairston, EE & Dunn are all poor defenders where they are. I am not sure what the answers are but I hope Walt does.
    .

  4. #3
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Regarding our defense, the easiest way to think of it is that the Reds defense allows 1 batted ball per game to become a hit that the average team would turn in to an out and 2 fewer than good defensive teams. Divy it up where you will, but that's the net effect.

    And given that our pitching allows .39 more runs per game than average, you can fairly say that we have a league average pitching staff and a league worst defense. Our run prevention deficit relative to average falls at the feet of our defense, pun intended.
    http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=44
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #5
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    The key is building a strong defense up the middle (C, SS, 2B, CF) and going from there. I'd like to see a young SS like Chin-lung Hu acquired to fill the whole at SS. What do the successful Reds teams of the past all have in common? Strong defense up the middle.

    1999 Reds: 2B Pokey Reese, SS Barry Larkin, CF Mike Cameron...Eddie Taubensee was weak behind the plate but they could afford it with all the other strong defenders.

    1995: 2B Bret Boone, SS Barry Larkin, CF Darren Lewis, C Benito Santiago

    1990: 2B Mariano Duncan, SS Barry Larkin, CF Eric Davis, C Joe Oliver

    I'd like to see a Homer Bailey for Taylor Teagarden deal to shore up the catcher position. Someone like Chin-lung Hu would be nice at SS, or they could always sign Orlando Hudson or Mark Ellis and shift Phillips to SS.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  7. #6
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Above average defenders - Brandon Phillips and Corey Patterson.

    Average defenders - Joey Votto/Jay Bruce

    Below average defenders - Everyone else. Griffey, Dunn, EE, Catchers, Kepp, Hairston.

    Yeah, we need better defense.

  8. #7
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    I am of the notion that Edwin is, at least, average at third and improving.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

  9. #8
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Above average defenders - Brandon Phillips and Corey Patterson.

    Average defenders - Joey Votto/Jay Bruce

    Below average defenders - Everyone else. Griffey, Dunn, EE, Catchers, Kepp, Hairston.

    Yeah, we need better defense.
    I think Bruce will be a well above average defender in right field.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  10. #9
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    I think Bruce will be a well above average defender in right field.
    I agree... but I expect him to play a lot more CF than RF the rest of this season, so I put him in the average camp for now.

  11. #10
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    The key is building a strong defense up the middle (C, SS, 2B, CF) and going from there. I'd like to see a young SS like Chin-lung Hu acquired to fill the whole at SS. What do the successful Reds teams of the past all have in common? Strong defense up the middle.

    1999 Reds: 2B Pokey Reese, SS Barry Larkin, CF Mike Cameron...Eddie Taubensee was weak behind the plate but they could afford it with all the other strong defenders.

    1995: 2B Bret Boone, SS Barry Larkin, CF Darren Lewis, C Benito Santiago

    1990: 2B Mariano Duncan, SS Barry Larkin, CF Eric Davis, C Joe Oliver

    I'd like to see a Homer Bailey for Taylor Teagarden deal to shore up the catcher position. Someone like Chin-lung Hu would be nice at SS, or they could always sign Orlando Hudson or Mark Ellis and shift Phillips to SS.

    The O-Dog and B-Phil as a double play combo? Be still my beating heart!

    The O-Dog is the gold standard for NL 2B, and I would bet a large sum of money that B-Phil would be the gold standard for NL SS. Both have ridiculous range, soft hands, and great instincts. Those two would be worth the price of admission alone!

    Now the mystery remains if B-Phil and O-Dog could both consistently OPS North of .775, or else their exceptional gloves go to waste and they become offensive voids.

    As for C, I'd like to see the Reds make a run for any of the Rangers' catchers, Laird being the lowest on my wish list, with Salty and Teagarden essentially being neck and neck at the top. Send Homer Bailey back to his homestate, and see which C we can get in return. Toss in Stubbs too. He played his college ball as a Longhorn.

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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    The key is building a strong defense up the middle (C, SS, 2B, CF) and going from there. I'd like to see a young SS like Chin-lung Hu acquired to fill the whole at SS.
    I thought he was on first base.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Above average defenders - Brandon Phillips and Corey Patterson.

    Average defenders - Joey Votto/Jay Bruce

    Below average defenders - Everyone else. Griffey, Dunn, EE, Catchers, Kepp, Hairston.

    Yeah, we need better defense.
    I like Bruce and Votto too, but Joey is a below average defender at this point -- too many errors -- and Bruce is nothing special in center. He'd be better in right.

    You're right that Patterson is good, but he is now a full fledged backup.

    IMO, Phillips is a plus defender and the rest of the starting team is average or below.

    Still, the Reds have made far fewer errors of late and as a unit are playing improved defense.

  14. #13
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Position switches?!

    Kep and Hairston are natural 2B. Of course we have Phillips here.
    When at SS Kep and Hairston are below average.
    Kep has looked ok at 3B.

    EE would play better at 1B but his bat would not.

    Can Votto play 1B? Nine errors at 1B. Wow!

    Could be that the only way to build a good defensive team is to move some folks at let loose some folks.

    ie
    C - new
    1B - EE or new
    2B - Phillips
    SS - new
    3B - Kep
    LF - Dunn or Votto hide here
    CF - new
    RF - Bruce

    That is a whole lotta new faces if the Reds are going from awful to good on defense. It is tough to build a good defense with Phillips at 2B, Bruce in RF and a bunch of defensive hacks.
    .

  15. #14
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    [QUOTE=Kc61;1687848]IMO, Phillips is a plus defender and the rest of the starting team is average or below.

    [QUOTE]

    yep. Phillips grades an A+. Bruce in RF grades a B ( in CF a C ).
    All the other starters are below average at their current positions.
    Last edited by Will M; 07-08-2008 at 06:27 PM. Reason: oops
    .

  16. #15
    Ripsnort wheels's Avatar
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    Re: The Reds need more defense

    I really think step one is getting Phillips to move over to short.

    Have someone in the front office put together a compilation video of past great Reds shortstops, intermixed with Brandon Phillips highlights.

    "We think the next great Reds shortstop is you, Brandon. You down?"

    I'll bet he'd bite.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn


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