Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26

Thread: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

  1. #1
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,160

    Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Its routinely discussed here about players who are potential free agents that we ought to let them walk and take the draft picks. I know folks used to reply that draft picks in baseball aren't like in the NFL or NBA because you've got so much development to undertake before they ever set foot on a ML field. There is a considerable risk in any draft pick; there are very few "sure things".

    USA Today reported last fall:

    Under the new collective bargaining agreement, the rankings are used to determine whether players are Type "A" or Type "B." The classification determines which draft picks former teams receive as compensation if they sign with another team. The top 20% of the rankings are "A" and the next 20% "B."
    The only Reds players who were ranked last year as A Players were Adam Dunn, Ken Griffey Jr., Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo and Brandon Phillips. Edwin Encarnacion and Jeff Keppinger were B Players.

    I believe the rankings are based on a two year period (so these are 2006/2007 rankings).

    We signed Francisco Cordero who was an A Player this offseason and forfeited our 2nd round pick to the Brewers (they chose RHP Seth Lintz).

    But since compensation picks were implemented, we've only taken 17 players. Three were just in last year, so obviously the book remains out on them. Only one player became an impact player for the Reds, Joe Oliver, a second round pick from the Yankees as compensation for losing Bob Shirley to them.

    Here's the list:

    1st round picks (including supplemental picks):

    2007 Todd Frazier compensation for Rich Aurelia
    2007 Kyle Lotzkar compensation for Scott Schoenweiss

    2000 Dustin Mosely compensation for Juan Guzman
    1996 Matt McClendon compensation for Ron Gant
    1993 Pat Watkins compensation for Greg Swindell
    1982 Scott Jones pick from Yankees for Dave Collins
    1982 Roberts Jones supplemental pick from Yankees for Dave Collins

    2nd round picks

    2000 Dane Sardinha compensation for Juan Guzman
    1996 Buddy Carlyle compensation for Ron Gant
    1992 Rick Madelano compensation for Mariano Duncan
    1983 Joe Oliver compensation for Bob Shirley
    1980 Jim Pettibone compensation for Joe Morgan
    1980 Dave Miley compensation for Fred Norman
    1979 Keefe Cato compensation for Mike Lum
    1979 Bob Buchannon pick from the Angels for tampering with Bill Bordley (???)

    3rd round picks

    2007 Scott Carroll compensation for Rich Aurelia
    1993 Steve Wilkerson compensation for Greg Swindell

    As you can see, only Oliver was an impact player. Those who made the majors mostly had just cups of coffee. Seven of them never saw major league service. Again, the book remains open on the three 2007 extra picks, but I've seen folks speak wel of Frazier and Lotzkar.

    The point of this exercise is to highlight that "taking the draft picks" is not a sure thing, in fact, it's not much of a bet. I think we bandy it about way too easily. One for 17 is just batting .058 - not so hot. I'm not sure what the best approach would be, but draft picks isn't a sure thing.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

    The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com

    The Baseball Bookstore

    http://tsc-sales.com/
    http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
    http://silverscreenbooks.com/

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,475

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Can't really agree. A lot of these picks were long ago. Not sure the Reds put as much money or effort into the draft then. Today, the Reds are good drafters, they obviously focus heavily on the draft. Guys like Frazier, Lotzkar and Carroll were good selections and with a bunch of high picks next year I'm sure they'd pick wisely.

    Drafting is a far different task today, with economics requiring teams to build with youth. Even the process in the 1990s and early 2000s seems outdated.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-21-2008 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #3
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,432

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Am I the only one here who has an autographed card of Buddy Carlyle from when he played for the Charleston AlleyCats? His first Major League win was in 1999, and his second ML win was in 2007. I wonder what it could fetch on eBay . . .

  5. #4
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,432

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    I thank the heavens every day for Jim Bowden no longer being the Reds' GM.

  6. #5
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Savannah, TN
    Posts
    2,885

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Don't agree. A lot of these picks were long ago. Not sure the Reds put as much money or effort into the draft then. Today, the Reds are good drafters, they obviously focus heavily on the draft. Guys like Frazier, Lotzkar and Carroll were good selections and with a bunch of high picks next year I'm sure they'd pick wisely.
    It seems that all teams are doing a better job picking over the last few years. The first round guys seem to get to the majors with more frequency than in the past.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  7. #6
    post hype sleeper cincinnati chili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    10,811

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Good work, redsmetz.

    I agree that if you get a GOOD free agent, the draft picks are usually worth forfeiting. But mostly, this list suggests that the Reds have drafted poorly. Every single year in the history of the draft good players have been avail. in supplemental rounds.

    Also Todd Frazier is still 22 and has hit well this year in high A ball:
    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/m...pbp&pid=453943
    How, then, are those people of the future—who are taking steroids every day—going to look back on baseball players who used steroids? They're going to look back on them as pioneers. They're going to look back at it and say "So what?" - Bill James, Cooperstown and the 'Roids

  8. #7
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,160

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Can't really agree. A lot of these picks were long ago. Not sure the Reds put as much money or effort into the draft then. Today, the Reds are good drafters, they obviously focus heavily on the draft. Guys like Frazier, Lotzkar and Carroll were good selections and with a bunch of high picks next year I'm sure they'd pick wisely.

    Drafting is a far different task today, with economics requiring teams to build with youth. Even the process in the 1990s and early 2000s seems outdated.
    You may well be right about teams putting more effort into it, but I'm not certain that's completely true. There might be more tools available for analyzing draftees' abilities, but then again, you really can lose out if you have crummy scouting and development. Bowdens drafts proved to be weak, but even back in the 70's, you could see the coming implosion in the early 1980's from some of those drafts; which is ironic given the clubs resistance to the advent of free agency - you'd have thought they'd have beefed up minor league development.

    In 1972, only one of our draft picks made the club (21st round pick) Dan Dumoulin; 2 years, 1-0 record in 1977 and 1978); one other made the ML's; 23rd round pick Ron Hassey, but he didn't sign with us waiting to be drafted two more times until signing with Cleveland after college in 1976). What a horrible, horrible draft. The following year, we only picked one player that made the majors, pitcher Jay Howell, and he only pitched for us one year before moving on to some success as a reliever.

    Maybe they're doing a better job now, but I still think it's not a given. Mosely and Sardinha show that they still can be crapshoots. Maybe last year's three picks beat the odds. We'll see.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

    The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com

    The Baseball Bookstore

    http://tsc-sales.com/
    http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
    http://silverscreenbooks.com/

  9. #8
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,160

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnati chili View Post
    Also Todd Frazier is still 22 and has hit well this year in high A ball:
    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/m...pbp&pid=453943
    Clearly it's too early to last year's three picks. As I mentioned just a moment ago, maybe these guys make a better showing for us.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

    The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com

    The Baseball Bookstore

    http://tsc-sales.com/
    http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
    http://silverscreenbooks.com/

  10. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,622

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    The point of this exercise is to highlight that "taking the draft picks" is not a sure thing, in fact, it's not much of a bet. I think we bandy it about way too easily. One for 17 is just batting .058 - not so hot. I'm not sure what the best approach would be, but draft picks isn't a sure thing.
    The flip side of that... how many of those free agents that were classified high enough to bring in a draft pick, did we really miss?

    At this point, the reds are much better off owning futures in Frazier and Lotskar than the the last couple of years of Rich Aurillia and Schoenwiess.

    Juan Guzman left the reds. Signed a multimillion dollar multiyear contract and his arm fell off. The reds were better off with anything.

    Ron Gant was off and on productive after he left the reds, although he carried a hefty price tag.

    Swindell was basically done as a starting pitcher when he left. Now, he did resurrect his career as a very effective loogy, but that wasn't what he was here.

    Collins played for nine years after he left the reds, but only during one of those was he really worth the playing time teams invested in him.

    Mariano Duncan was off and on effective after he left and he never really was an expensive player.

    Fred Norman and Mike Lum were done. You can't blame anybody for letting them go.

    In retrospect, letting Morgan walk wasn't a good move.

    In other words...of the free agents the reds let walk, the only ones that actually contributed to ANYBODY after they left here would have been Morgan, Duncan and Gant and I think you can make a decent case that Duncan and Gant didn't earn out their free agent contracts.

    Unless I'm very much mistaken, on the list of guys the reds would receive compensation for the only one that will be free to walk away where the reds could receive compensation would be Adam Dunn. I don't think the reds can buy Junior out and then offer him arbitration in order to take the pick when he walks. (Corrections are welcome) Similarly the other guys are either under contract or have not started arbitration yet.

    At the time of their leaving, none of the players the reds received compensation for were in the class of Adam Dunn. Probably the closest was Ron Gant. Dunn is younger than Gant was and has established a much higher consistent level of play.

    Still while Ron Gant was patrolling left field in Busch Stadium for the Cardinals, we got to see Eric Owens and Chris Stynes.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  11. #10
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    11,432

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post
    Clearly it's too early to last year's three picks. As I mentioned just a moment ago, maybe these guys make a better showing for us.
    When DanO took over, there was an almost-immediate improvement on drafting and development in the Reds organization. After WayK took over, the improvements were greatly accelerated, and the Reds have one of the top minor league organizations in baseball. I think the draft pick compensation has more value than ever for the Reds, but anyone in baseball will tell you that there is no guarantee that a draft pick will pan out. Plus, another thing to keep in mind is that whoever the Reds draft will receive a pretty big signing bonus as a first rounder, so that factors into the equation as well.

  12. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    13,475

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by redsmetz View Post

    Maybe they're doing a better job now, but I still think it's not a given. Mosely and Sardinha show that they still can be crapshoots. Maybe last year's three picks beat the odds. We'll see.

    Even Mosely and Sardinha were drafted in a different era as far as the Reds are concerned. Much more emphasis on drafting the last few years for this organization.

    I'd rather the Reds get draft picks than take a second tier prospect in a trade.

  13. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,836

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Adam Dunn was a 3rd round pick, right? The sandwich rounds are after the 1st and 2nd rounds, right? I'm just sayin!

    It will always be a crapshoot. You'd rather have the sure thing over taking a gamble, but sometimes, it's not in the cards. If you can't resign the FA and the trade offers are bad, taking the picks is the next best thing.

  14. #13
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,239

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Adam Dunn was a 3rd round pick, right? The sandwich rounds are after the 1st and 2nd rounds, right? I'm just sayin!

    It will always be a crapshoot. You'd rather have the sure thing over taking a gamble, but sometimes, it's not in the cards. If you can't resign the FA and the trade offers are bad, taking the picks is the next best thing.
    Dunn was a second round pick.

  15. #14
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Winton Place
    Posts
    11,160

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Adam Dunn was a 3rd round pick, right? The sandwich rounds are after the 1st and 2nd rounds, right? I'm just sayin!

    It will always be a crapshoot. You'd rather have the sure thing over taking a gamble, but sometimes, it's not in the cards. If you can't resign the FA and the trade offers are bad, taking the picks is the next best thing.
    Doug answered the Dunn question, but some of these were sandwich picks, others were the other team's pick during that round (as Milwaukee got from us this year). I don't have it broken down as to which are which. Of course, the rules changed over the years as the Basic Agreement has changed.
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

    The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com

    The Baseball Bookstore

    http://tsc-sales.com/
    http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
    http://silverscreenbooks.com/

  16. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,836

    Re: Draft Pick Compensation - Reds Record

    Okay, 2nd round. Even still, Dunn could've been acquired in the 1st sandwich round...


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25