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Thread: another game, another mental error

  1. #1
    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    another game, another mental error

    this team for years has made game in game out chock full of mental errors, why is this so embedded into the Reds, it's like 1st year little league. Im almost at the point where I hope they go nuclear with a smart bomb on this team again and just bring up some hungry rookies and teach them how to run bases and hit cutoff men. Totally frustrated with this group and tired of watching them botch routine basic baseball plays. That nonsense yesterday was pathetic, I saw Jr give up on 2 easy flies and he's wondering why fans are ripping him and dont get me started on Ed E, he's playing third like he's had brain surgery, Im sick of it, man when does college football start?


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  3. #2
    smells of rich mahogany deltachi8's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    feel free to change the channel. i think it's allowed.
    Nothing to see here. Please disperse.

  4. #3
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    This team just has a low baseball IQ...plain and simple as that.

  5. #4
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Blow it up. Reeeeal good.

    Last night was the final straw for me. The Reds are just abyssmal defensively. Time to move or dump anyone that can't at least play acceptable defense at one position and hit .250 .
    This is almost the entire team!

    Keep:
    1. Phillips - gold glover at 2B
    2. Bruce - decent in CF and plus in RF/LF
    3. Kep - can't play SS due to weak range but can play 2B/3B. starting to look overmatched as an everyday player but. may be best as a platoon vs LHP and spot starter vs RHP.
    4. Freel of all people can actually play decent defense in RF and LF.
    5. Votto SEEMS to be better defensively lately. if he keeps it up he can stay.

    Help on the way?:
    Janish was terrible at the plate so I don't think we can count on him.
    Dickerson by all accounts plays a good CF but the Reds don't seem to think much of him. Maybe 4th/5th OF material. Cumberland hasn't hit in AAA. Valaiaka is still at AA.

    Let go:
    Ross, Bako, Javy all are subpar defensively.
    Jr has zero range.
    Dunn has actually looked better defensively this year but he still is a poor outfielder.
    Patterson goes because he can't hit .200 .
    I really like Hairston but I think he goes. He plays 2B best and really can't play CF. In a pinch he could be reupped and play LF or in a semiplatoon with Dickerson getting some ABs here. However LF is a position where we would hope to get some more power.

    Trade:
    1. EE - he just sucks defensively. so so so bad.
    2. Gonzo if he ever gets healthy. another Krivsky SS who wasn't as good as advertised defensively.

    So the 2009 lineup is:
    1B Votto
    2B Phillips
    SS acquisition
    3B Kep vs LHP. acquisition vs RHP
    RF bruce
    CF acquisition
    LF acquisition. possibly Hairston.
    C acquisition

    Yep. We have 3.5 players who can catch the ball. No wonder we have the
    2nd worst defense in the league.

    As for who to get to play 4.5 open spots, well theres the rub.
    We have EE as bait and not much else to trade. Maybe Maloney.
    Free agents look weak at catcher and SS.
    Free agents who can catch the ball:
    1. Teixeira would look good at 1B. Now only can he hit but he has a very good glove. Votto could be moved to fill a hole elsewhere.
    2. Cesar Izturis and Orlando Cabrera can field but can't hit. Furcal just had back surgery.
    3. Pat Burrel has zero errors in LF and has the 2nd highest zone rating for left fielders in MLB!

    Use the money coming off the books to get Tex and Burrell.
    Move EE/Votto/+ for a catcher/SS/CF.
    A 3-4-5 of Bruce-Tex-Burrel is a great start to an offense.
    .

  6. #5
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Well everyone get ready to to be sick because I'll bet my house the 2009 Reds have a lineup that includes Hairston as CF, and AGon as SS.

    Votto - 1B
    BP - 2B
    AGon - SS
    EE - 3B
    C - TBD
    CF - Hairston Jr.
    RF - Bruce
    LF - TBD

    I'll bet Walt's acquisitions include a left fielder taking over for Dunn, and a catcher, with most of the rest of his trades affecting the pitching staff.

  7. #6
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Every year we hear how fundamentals will be emphasized...I'm still waiting...

  8. #7
    Member paulrichjr's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    It is amazing...and I mean amazing how watching this team in person will make you think different. I went to the Friday game and was amazed at the following:

    1. Griffey is just awful in the OF. TV doesn't show the 1/2 of it. I never understood how bad until seeing it in person.
    2. Kepp has no arm. None. And he has no range to go with no arm.
    3. Phillips is awesome defensively.
    4. EdE can't make a solid throw at all. I guess I am about to give up on him at 3B also.
    5. Votto ain't bad at 1B. I was pleasantly surprised.
    6. No comparison to this team defensively and the Rocks. Their defense really shined and showed that defense is huge.
    7. Volquez was not good but it seemed to me that the defense cost him a lot of extra pitches and he threw a ton of pitches that were almost strikes but not quiet strikes. It seemed he was getting squeezed. That being said...he sure isn't Aaron Cook.
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  9. #8
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Quote Originally Posted by paulrichjr View Post
    It is amazing...and I mean amazing how watching this team in person will make you think different. I went to the Friday game and was amazed at the following:

    1. Griffey is just awful in the OF. TV doesn't show the 1/2 of it. I never understood how bad until seeing it in person.
    2. Kepp has no arm. None. And he has no range to go with no arm.
    3. Phillips is awesome defensively.
    4. EdE can't make a solid throw at all. I guess I am about to give up on him at 3B also.
    5. Votto ain't bad at 1B. I was pleasantly surprised.
    6. No comparison to this team defensively and the Rocks. Their defense really shined and showed that defense is huge.
    7. Volquez was not good but it seemed to me that the defense cost him a lot of extra pitches and he threw a ton of pitches that were almost strikes but not quiet strikes. It seemed he was getting squeezed. That being said...he sure isn't Aaron Cook.
    I do think Votto's D is getting better. A lot of his errors were early in the season.

    I feel sorry for Reds pitchers some nights. I wonder what the Reds team ERA would be with the 1990 Reds defense behind them or some of the late 90s early 2000s Cardinals defenses ( Edmonds, Rolen, etc )
    .

  10. #9
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    EE...yet another tallented Reds player that will get run out of town on a rail because some fans can't see past one (hidiously over magnified) flaw in his game.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 07-28-2008 at 03:03 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  11. #10
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    EE...yet another Reds player that will get run out of town on a rail because some fans can't see past one (hidiously over magnified) flaw in his game.
    it is not a hidiously overmagnified flaw. the guy just can't play 3B. as to his offensive capabilities i have no issue with him. if he can play 1B or LF then he can be an asset.
    .

  12. #11
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    it is not a hidiously overmagnified flaw. the guy just can't play 3B. as to his offensive capabilities i have no issue with him. if he can play 1B or LF then he can be an asset.
    Laughable.

    Ignore his range and the number of simply amazing plays he makes.

    Ignore that some of his errors are attributable to other players. Some of those throwing errors are because Votto isn't fully up to speed digging the ball out of the dirt. Yesterady he got tagged with an error on a foulball because Ross tried to catch a ball that was EE's.

    Does he have issues throwing the ball from time to time? Obviously. But to focus on that one flaw and make statements like "he can't play third" because of them is akin to saying Dunn is da sux because of his low BA.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 07-28-2008 at 03:25 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  13. #12
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Laughable.

    Ignore his range and the number of simply amazing plays he makes.

    Ignore that some of his errors are attributable to other players. Some of those throwing errors are because Votto isn't fully up to speed digging the ball out of the dirt. Yesterady he got tagged with an error on a foulball because Ross tried to catch a ball that was EE's.

    Does he have issues throwing the ball from time to time? Obviously. But to focus on that one flaw and make statements like "he can't play third" because of them is akin to saying Dunn is da sux because of his low BA.
    EE's range is ... awful. Only Aramis Ramirez has worse range at 3B in the NL.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...mn=rangeFactor

    EE can't throw and has no range. Another DH playing the field for the Reds.
    .

  14. #13
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    When watching any player defensively, I think we often suffer from a lack of direct comparison. Sure, EE makes the occasional great play. Those tend to stick out in our minds. And while we want to subtract out the throwing errors, we overstate the value of giving those back to him.

    We're simply not very good at intuitively comparing what a given player does compared to an abstract standard. This goes for any range of issues.

    Even if you were to give him credit for the bulk of his throw errors on the assumption it's something he'll fix, EE's rate at fielding balls in zone (literally defined as the point at which the average 3B makes the play) is at the 25% percentile of qualified 3B. And his rate of balls fielded out of zone per inning is lower than everybody but Bill Hall and Melvin Mora.

    It's more or less the same story last year and the same in 2006.

    While no defensive metric is perfect, there's a strong consensus that EE isn't very good. You could argue that he can still improve, but you're looking at significant improvement required to get to average for an established starting 3B.

    If Dunn walks, I think EE should be considered for a corner OF spot. The FA market at 3B isn't much better than OF, but perhaps the trade market would be friendlier. In any case, we need to accept that EE is a sub-par fielder throwing issues aside. I've never been on the trade EE wagon, but if improving the defense is a top priority and Griffey and Dunn are gone, he's next in line.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  15. #14
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    I agree with the moving of EE to the OF (or even first base). We've got multiple options available for 3B in the near future down on the farm. Until they're ready, Kepp could be a pretty solid replacement for third I'd think. If we consider EE for 1st, then Votto goes to LF and Kepp to 3rd. Edwin's bat, while hot & cold, is solid enough for a starter. His glove work is pretty decent too. But his range and his arm are his biggest liabilities. 1st base and LF both minimize those liabilities. But moving him also improves Kepps position too. He's better suited for 3rd than SS.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  16. #15
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: another game, another mental error

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Well everyone get ready to to be sick because I'll bet my house the 2009 Reds have a lineup that includes Hairston as CF, and AGon as SS.

    Votto - 1B
    BP - 2B
    AGon - SS
    EE - 3B
    C - TBD
    CF - Hairston Jr.
    RF - Bruce
    LF - TBD
    2009 Lineup
    Patterson CF
    Phillips SS
    Bruce RF
    Gonzalez 3B
    Encarncion 1B
    Votto LF
    Hairston 2B
    Bako C

    Based upon the theory that CF leads off, shortstop bats second, RF or respect bats third, batters with no business hitting fourth, bat fourth, and batters that get on base more often than others bat down in the order.

    Hey GAC !! This Buds for you :all_cohol er um lineup :fineprint <--Dusty's lineup card.


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