Turn Off Ads?
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 91

Thread: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

  1. #46
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,665

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    This is what I don't understand. If Jocketty's big plan is to sit around and shepherd the growth of the young talent we already have, then there was no need to fire Krivsky in the first place.
    I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky, if and when any deals did present themselves. I think Bob lost faith (and patience) with Wayne.

    And the opportunity was there when his buddy got fired, parted ways, whatever, with the Cards.

    But my prophecy abut fans giving Walt as short a "honeymoon" as Wayne - if not even shorter, because Jocketty's resume is far more impressive - is slowly coming true.

    And that's sad because Walt deserves the time to implement and make HIS changes, and leave his "finger prints" on this team.

    And for people to be complaining because he hasn't made any moves yet, while only being on the job a little over 3 months, is kind of absurb.

    They are more impetuous then this owner.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #47
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    But my prophecy abut fans giving Walt as short a "honeymoon" as Wayne - if not even shorter, because Jocketty's resume is far more impressive - is slowly coming true.
    Yes, and one has to remember that the Bob Castellini himself, set the bench mark for expectations, so if the "honeymoon" is not long enough for Walt, then look to big Bob, for the explanation.

    The chief executive officer has been on the job since 2006.

    "Absolutely"

    "The losing stops now"

    "I am going to fire myself"

    I just take big Bob at his word.
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 07-28-2008 at 05:05 PM.

  4. #48
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,665

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    It only took Krivsky over two years, tens of millions of dollars and untold man hours to build this stellar pen. It also cost the team its offense.
    How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

    Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.

    Wayne's backers have often not cared about the entire team/organization and only cared about specific moves/characteristics/players to "prove" Wayne's worth.
    That's pure baloney.

    And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on.

    What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

    And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

    And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

    And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

    The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

    And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

    And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

    Lets see what you can do Walt.
    Last edited by GAC; 07-28-2008 at 08:21 PM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  5. #49
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    16,296

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

    Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.
    Like I said earlier, he didn't subtract offense. He just didn't replace offense or add offense. So as he sat there and obsessed over the bullpen for 2+ years, he just neglected his everyday lineup. To the point where the team now has a pretty good bullpen and a trash lineup. Nice work.

    I've said it for a while...the guy has an eye for talent. He just can't see the whole picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    That's pure baloney.

    And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on.

    What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

    And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

    And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

    And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

    The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

    And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

    And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

    Lets see what you can do Walt.
    I doubt that Wayne's "plan" conflicted with Bob's. He knew what Bob wanted. It was up to him to execute. He wasn't trying to pull a fast one on Bob and really plan for the future while giving the appearance that he was trying to win now. They had the same plan, except Wayne went in half-assed. If the owner wants to win now, then go for it.

    To get this job, Wayne had to tell him that he could put this team into position to win in the short-term. Then he failed. That's why he was fired.

  6. #50
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Like I said earlier, he didn't subtract offense. He just didn't replace offense or add offense. So as he sat there and obsessed over the bullpen for 2+ years, he just neglected his everyday lineup. To the point where the team now has a pretty good bullpen and a trash lineup. Nice work.
    How was he suppose to improve the offense ?
    How was he suppose to improve the starting pitching?
    How was he suppose to improve the relief pitching?
    How was he suppose to improve the minor league system?

    Phillips
    Hamilton
    Hatteberg
    Keppinger
    Votto

    What's wrong with those offensive improvements under the impoverished budget that Castellini puts out?

    Now tell me about the pitching and defense, that you skipped over.

    RS RA for the Reds and the competitors, I know what type of offense the Reds had and pitching and defense and I know what the Reds paid for it.

  7. #51
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    How? How did his efforts in building this bullpen cost us whatever offense we had? What "gems" did he sacrifice that somehow destroyed this offense? Give specifics.

    Hamilton for Volquez? That was a sound trade for both teams. But that doesn't even involve the bullpen.



    That's pure baloney.

    And it's not the Krivsky backers who keep injecting him into these discussions. We've moved on.

    What I, and many so-called Wayne-backers (and I love that term) have stated is that this team's fortunes, especially long term, is dependent upon improving the overall "health" of this organization from top to bottom, and begins with emphasizing/rebuilding the farm system. The ML roster will be the last to see the results if the others are being improved upon. Call it "trickle up".

    And looking at the state this organization has been in for the last decade, and the decay and mismanagement that had set in, it was an up-hill battle for any GM who underwent the task. But that was Wayne's objective.

    And it's something that doesn't happen "overnight" (1-2 years).

    And unless the owner is really going to open up the pocket books and play the market to acquire those needs/fill those holes, then the above is really the only alternative an organization like the Reds (and many others) have.

    The problem is that it involves patience, and that is something neither the fans, and especially this owner, didn't want to exercise.

    And that is what we've said. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The owner decides he didn't like that "plan", so he brings in his friend in hopes he can replicate the "St Louis model" which is pretty much the polar opposite of the above, and relies more on playing the market and spending the money to find those "steals" or under appreciated (under valued) players.

    And that's fine. You wouldn't get any argument from me.

    Lets see what you can do Walt.
    Good post.

    I know that I am waiting to see Walt do St. Louis champagne maneuvers with a Cincinnati Beer budget.
    Lindner, Reich, Strike, no, no big Bob !

    Code:
    Chicago 2000-2008 	St. Louis 2000-2008	Houston2000-2008   Cincinnati 2000-2008
    $ 118,345,833		$ 99,624,449		$ 88,930,414		$ 74,117,695
    $ 99,670,332		$ 90,286,823		$ 87,759,000		$ 68,904,980
    $ 94,424,499		$ 88,891,371		$ 92,551,503		$ 60,909,519
    $ 87,032,933		$ 92,106,833		$ 76,779,000		$ 61,892,583
    $ 90,560,000		$ 83,228,333		$ 75,397,000		$ 46,615,250
    $ 79,868,333		$ 83,786,666		$ 71,040,000		$ 59,355,667
    $ 75,690,833		$ 74,660,875		$ 63,448,417		$ 45,050,390
    $ 64,515,833		$ 78,333,333		$ 60,387,667		$ 48,784,000
    $ 62,129,333		$ 63,093,023		$ 52,081,667		$ 48,784,000
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 07-28-2008 at 11:51 PM.

  8. #52
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Rainelle, WV
    Posts
    8,074

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    I know you guys are serious, but why does every thread go back to Krivsky? I find it kind of strange. That's all.
    www.ris-news.com
    "You only have to bat a thousand in two things; flying and heart transplants. Everything else you can go 4-for-5."
    -Beano Cook

  9. #53
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,728

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    One thing this organization needs is stablility. If BC jumps the gun and fires Walt after say next year then he will get a reputation of a very impatient owner and no GM worth a darn is going to want to work for a owner like that.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  10. #54
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    I know you guys are serious, but why does every thread go back to Krivsky? I find it kind of strange. That's all.
    I don't know why they did that either, interesting the selective filtering though.

  11. #55
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    One thing this organization needs is stablility. If BC jumps the gun and fires Walt after say next year then he will get a reputation of a very impatient owner and no GM worth a darn is going to want to work for a owner like that.
    Why would he do that ?

  12. #56
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    4,728

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Why would he do that ?
    Lemme check with WK and get back with ya.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  13. #57
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    Lemme check with WK and get back with ya.
    I think that Castellini will step down before he fires Jocketty, Castellini has dug himself quite the hole, and painted himself into a corner, it will just take some time to manifest itself, but he has.

  14. #58
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Rainelle, WV
    Posts
    8,074

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC
    I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky, if and when any deals did present themselves. I think Bob lost faith (and patience) with Wayne.
    Totally agree. I think Castellini saw the writing on the wall--Dunn to free agancy, Griffey not signed, etc. and decided he wanted someone else to make the decision on who replaced them. You have to believe that Castellini was less than enthused by Gonzo at short and Patterson in CF. He was appalled at Stanton and Fogg and he lost faith and put an end to it. He wanted someone who could evaluate veteran players better across the board, and right or not, he thought there were too many mistakes made to continue the relationship.

    Knowing Jocketty's past performance, my guess is he has dangled Dunn, Arroyo, Griffey, Fogg, and Weathers out there and found that all that can be had is prospects. He's not going to do that because he knows there are no outfielders or relief pitchers out there to make the team respectable for the rest of the season. Given that, he's in full winter mode. You cannot give away a Dunn or even an Arroyo or a Griffey with nothing back. The rotation is already suffering with Volquez's difficulties and Cueto's rookie mistakes. Taking away Arroyo and leaving us a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Fogg, Bailey, and possibly Belisle would not be acceptable to anyone.
    www.ris-news.com
    "You only have to bat a thousand in two things; flying and heart transplants. Everything else you can go 4-for-5."
    -Beano Cook

  15. #59
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,625

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    I think that Castellini will step down before he fires Jocketty, Castellini has dug himself quite the hole, and painted himself into a corner, it will just take some time to manifest itself, but he has.
    Seriously?

    I mean -- I've followed sports for a long time and I don't think I can ever recall an owner divesting himself of the team or stepping down as owner simply because the product on the field is no good.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...

  16. #60
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: How long will Walt's honeymoon last?

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    I personally believe, with many contracts up in '08, and the opportunity to possibly make some deals, move some players, and really make some radical changes to this club (looking past '08 too) - you don't know in April what deals may present themselves or how the market is going to turn.... that Bob wanted Walt to be the man to make those future decisions and not Krivsky,
    Code:
    Rough Estimate
    Adam Dunn		13,000,000
    Ken Griffey Jr.	         8,282,695
    David Weathers	         3,300,000
    Corey Patterson	         3,000,000
    Jeremy Affeldt	         3,000,000
    David Ross	         2,525,000
    Josh Fogg		 1,500,000
    Javier Valentin	         1,350,000
    Paul Bako		   750,000
    Mike Lincoln	           550,000
    
    
    Mike Stanton		  3,000,000
    Scott Hatteberg	          1,850,000
    Matt Belisle		  1,250,000
    Juan Castro		    975,000
    Todd Coffey		    907,500
    Kent Mercker		    600,000
    Very Rough Estimate			$45,840,195
    Hairston Jr.
    Jocketty could have that amount to work with even if the owners do not increase the payroll, and that amount to the best of my knowledge is more than any general manager of the Reds has had free to work with.

    Possibly 11 players to replace with
    $45,840195 (very rough estimate) /11 $4,167,290 average per

    Arguably, he also has holes in the bullpen, starting pitching, RF, CF, LF, 3B, C, SS, 1B and the bench to upgrade if he feels they need it to compete with the main competitors in the Central.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25