Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40

Thread: Homer question...

  1. #1
    Reds 5:11 coachw513's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    642

    Homer question...

    I simply don't know enough to speculate, so I'll ask...

    What is wrong with him right now??

    And I'll assume we'll be able to go beyond the "he sucks", "no, he doesn't" dialogue...

    A series of questions...

    1. How much is it mental??
    2. Is he overthinking??...underthinking??
    3. Is he working on too much??...not enough???
    4. Has his stuff changed for the worse??...was it/is it simply not good enough??
    5. Should he be put on a "no shake-off" policy right now??...why or why not??
    6. Will it/can it improve??

    I "see" a guy who is trying to get command of too many pitches right now, is overthinking and needs to simplify the mental end (yes, I'd put him on the Cueto "no shakeoff policy")...I see him getting murdered on 0-2 and 1-2 pitches which to me is a process of needing to be smarter...

    Due to TBS and WGN being the only games in town for me, I was "forced" to watch the development of the Braves staff (Avery, Glavine, Smoltz) and a young Greg Maddux...it took a while for them as well...

    I'd LOVE some real feedback assessing where this 22 year old is relative to potential upside and continued improvement...but he clearly is shell-shocked right now, yes???


    You cannot defeat an ignorant man in an argument!
    -William Gibbs McAdoo

    Though many of us here are sure trying

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    28,159

    Re: Homer question...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachw513 View Post
    I'd LOVE some real feedback assessing where this 22 year old is relative to potential upside and continued improvement...but he clearly is shell-shocked right now, yes???
    To a degree, yes.

    I think he's grappling with a few unpleasant concepts:

    1) His stuff isn't nearly as good as he thought it was.

    2) Because his stuff isn't so great, baseball's a lot harder than he expected and I'm not sure that he's sure whether he wants to put that kind of work into it.

    3) When you're falling apart, and he is, you get too much advice. You're suddenly worried about everything and that can cause paralysis.

    I suspect the unpleasant truth for Reds fans to grapple with is even if he addresses #2 and #3 on that list, he still might be a few years away from having the requisite stuff to succeed. His pitches lack polish and his control is, charitably, poor.

    The sad thing is he's only got one more option year left. Pushing him as quick as the franchise did means it can't wait until he's 25 or 26 (even if that's how long it's going to take for him to get right).
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

  4. #3
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Homer question...

    lacks command of his fastball

    has no quality off speed pitch

    He throws hard but his fastball is straight, he doesn't have an offspeed pitch to keep hitters honest and they wait for a mistake up and out over the plate
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  5. #4
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Dublin, OH
    Posts
    5,328

    Re: Homer question...

    His mindset and stuff is best suited for the bullpen.

    Hopefully he is a potential closer. That will justify his draft slot.

  6. #5
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Homer question...

    1. How much is it mental??
    2. Is he overthinking??...underthinking??
    3. Is he working on too much??...not enough???
    4. Has his stuff changed for the worse??...was it/is it simply not good enough??
    5. Should he be put on a "no shake-off" policy right now??...why or why not??
    6. Will it/can it improve??
    1. It's very possible that none of it is mental. What I mean is that I'm not convinced Homer is intelligent, which could be a very good thing in the fact that his mind isn't getting in the way, but could directly point to the fact that he's not all that we thought he was physically.

    2. I would say underthinking, given the "he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer/a couple sandwiches shy of a picnic/not the quickest car on the race track" premise I established with my answer to 1.

    Although, it could mean he's also overthinking, aka taxing his mental capacity. Or, it could be the simple fact that he can only remember 2 signs when the catcher puts fingers down, and the 2nd sign is a lil fuzzy so he always thinks it looks like the 1st sign? The kid is in love with his fastball. He may not have taken it to his Junior Prom, but you can bet your butt that he sure as heck took it to his Senior Prom.

    3. Homer could easily be working on too much, given the fact that I'm trying to establish that he's not a smart/intelligent human being. He may only be able to try and work at 1 pitch at a time, rather than 4. Given that his fastball is pedestrian, at best, he may be trying to work on that gem, rather than his other marginal pitches.

    And it's also possible he's not working on enough b/c again, he lacks the mental capacity to accept and attempt the task at hand.

    4. I'm of the opinion Homer had a fastball, and a curveball good enough to keep HS kids off the bases. Now, it's debatable that he even has a fastball. Homer may very well have been the lovechild of the PR machine that spoon and force fed us Ty Howington, Chris Gruler, and Ryan Wagner. All were supposed to have electric/filthy/nasty/fill in the blank type stuff, and Wagner's the only one that's pitched any decent amount of IP at the MLB level, albeit his results have been crappy.

    Homer, to me, is essentially a 1.5 pitch pitcher, who happens to know how to grip 2 other pitches. Like I said, he only knows how to throw his fastball worth a lick, and his curveball, his change, and whatever the heck other breaking ball he's tried to throw lately (it's painful to watch). It's very possible he never had the stuff to begin with, or he lost is somewhere between draft day to the present. Regardless, his stuff is crap right now, and that's being generous. I bet most of us could catch up to his FB during a PA and take it yard. Although, I'm not convinced he wouldn't walk some of us, given his mastery of the strikezone.

    5. Would you rather see Homer be forced to throw crappy pitches, or would you rather him go to his bread and butter crappy fastball? It's the lesser of 2 evils. Let the Catcher call the game, or let Homer call the game. That's how I see this playing out.

    6. Homer might improve. Having him up here to appear in meaningless games is good for his development, but when you get your butt handed to you by the Nationals (of all teams... ), then you know you're just not good, and maybe professional baseball isn't in your future. We all have to hope, pray, whatever, that Homer will improve. He certainly has no where to go but up.

  7. #6
    Member SMcGavin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    1,483

    Re: Homer question...

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    The sad thing is he's only got one more option year left. Pushing him as quick as the franchise did means it can't wait until he's 25 or 26 (even if that's how long it's going to take for him to get right).
    This is the truth.

    As for those who think something is "wrong" with Homer, or think that him getting knocked around now mean he is destined for the bullpen - I submit to you these numbers.

    Edinson Volquez's first 46 MLB innings, compiled at ages 22 and 23:
    46 IP, 26 K, 27 BB, 10 HR allowed

  8. #7
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Rainelle, WV
    Posts
    8,068

    Re: Homer question...

    One more thing. As a former teacher, I learned that anyone can learn to do anything if they are willing to follow the instructions of their teacher. The problem has always been getting the student to follow.

    Homer has some talent, but it's not "plus" talent. What I saw tonight was a young man who had no command nor control. That's not good. Edinson learned because he was willing. I have no information on Homer other than that what I have read here. It appears he is not listening to his teachers. Those are the one who normally get a D or an F.
    www.ris-news.com
    "You only have to bat a thousand in two things; flying and heart transplants. Everything else you can go 4-for-5."
    -Beano Cook

  9. #8
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Re: Homer question...

    Homer shouldn't be in the majors in the first place. I would've left him in the minors all season long until he was proving he could consistently command his fastball and develop a better secondary pitch. Send him back to AAA and if he continues to struggle there then move him to the bullpen and see how he fares in that role.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  10. #9
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,837

    Re: Homer question...

    There's just something missing right now. I don't know if it's mental or physical or what.

    It's easy to just assume his talent was overrated all along; to sum up the comments I've heard here, he has no command of anything and his fastball was never all that fast. Okay, fine, but you don't blow through the Southern League at age 20 the way he did if you're not doing something awfully right. Whatever it was, he isn't doing it now.

    Not that this is a Bailey-specific comment, but I hope a pitching-coach upgrade is on Jocketty's offseason to-do list.
    Not all who wander are lost

  11. #10
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,722

    Re: Homer question...

    I still think there is a plus starter in there. Unfortunately, I think the Reds messed him up (with his attitude getting an assist). He needs to go back to the fastball, curve and change. The reds introduced a slider at a fairly high level and seemed to try to break him down and start over in an attempt to gain more command. Now he still has no command, but the things he did have seemed to have been put in mothballs.

    I'd tell him to go down and throw hard, throw strikes and make him learn a change-up (paging Mr. Soto). He would not be in the mix in spring IMO. He'd be at AAA to start the year and would need to dominate before even getting a sniff. The team needs to have a catcher in AAA that can really work with him. I've heard good things about Chris Kroski being that type of organizational asset behind the plate. If so, I'd make him Homer's guy. If not, I'd find some one who can do that job.

    The bullpen wouldn't be an option until 2011 IMO. He should get until age 24 to learn to succeed in the rotation.
    Last edited by mth123; 08-02-2008 at 06:10 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  12. #11
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    26,661

    Re: Homer question...

    I like what Welsh and Brantley stated last night.

    Basically we have a kid who was AGAIN thrust into the rotation because of need and lack of alternatives. The kid possesses the repertoire of pitches; but is still trying to develop (master) one pitch - his breaking ball. And now we're seeing him having to do so while in the rotation. He seems to be "pounding the strike zone" better; but due to his inconsistency it has been brutal because of those secondary pitches, and that a majority of the time he's leaving it up in the zone.

    At the beginning of the season it was "rumored" that the kid was being hard-headed and not listening to instruction. And he was relying way too much on his fastball and trying to blow guys away. OK. Maybe so. But even the most hard-headed of students will, after a while, get the message and realize, by the results seen, that he has to listen to instruction if he wants any chance of succeeding. So I don't think the above is the primary reason for Homer's current struggles.

    And going into last year I listened to the coaches at Chattanooga say that developing his secondary pitches (primarily his breaking ball, and getting it to break AWAY from from lefties) was still a "work in progress" and what was holding him back.

    I really do have a lot of doubts about the coaching staffs in this organization when it comes to developing pitchers. Not trying to exonerate Bailey; but I've always had my doubts on how this organization handles young pitchers.

    And especially a guy like Dick Poole.
    Last edited by GAC; 08-02-2008 at 06:40 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

  13. #12
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Homer question...

    Bailey has tallent. To pretend that he never did, or somehow "lost it" is silly. But there's plenty of tallented kid who ended up in the dustbin of baseball history. Tallent alone doesn't cut it.

    All indications are that he is arrogent and not willing to listen to instruction. I think it usually takes most pitchers by suprise when they smack into the difference between AAA and the bigs. It's not an incremental increase in difficulty, it's a quantium increase in difficulty. If you aren't willing to listen to instruction you are going to flail around. Especially if you are suddenly struggling for, likely, the first time in your young baseball life.

    Another aspect is the horrific decision to call him up last year and package him as "the savior". One of Kriv's darkest moments. But if you take a tallented, but arrogent kid, and then reinforce the notion that the team "must have you", that you are "needed to save the team's season" you are going to make a big head much, much bigger.

    So the kid comes to town thinking (1) he must be God's gift to baseball...that's what's he's been told all his life (2) he must be God's gift to baseball....the major league team *needs* him (3) he must be God's gift to baseball...look how he's "destroyed" minor league pitching.

    This is not a recipe for a youngster to learn and grow through the pains of adjusting to major league life. The cold hard slap of real life shows up in an over reliance on a pitch that's always worked before (the fastball) or overthrowing lesser pitches that worked at lower skill levels.

    The kid has tallent. Hell, on some level Corey Patterson has "tallent" when it comes to baseball (in comparison to GAC, for example). Can Homer harness his tallent and learn how to pitch, not throw, in the majors? Probably still to early to tell, but it's not looking promising right now.

    If it were me, I'd take the "marine drill sargent" approach and break him down to rebuild him.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 08-02-2008 at 09:42 AM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  14. #13
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Homer question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Bailey has talent.
    that he does, what he lacks is an "out" pitch.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand

  15. #14
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,722

    Re: Homer question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Bailey has tallent. To pretend that he never did, or somehow "lost it" is silly. But there's plenty of tallented kid who ended up in the dustbin of baseball history. Tallent alone doesn't cut it.

    All indications are that he is arrogent and not willing to listen to instruction. I think it usually takes most pitchers by suprise when they smack into the difference between AAA and the bigs. It's not an incremental increase in difficulty, it's a quantium increase in difficulty. If you aren't willing to listen to instruction you are going to flail around.

    Another aspect is the horrific decision to call him up last year and package him as "the savior". One of Kriv's darkest moments. But if you take a tallented, but arrogent kid, and then reinforce the notion that the team "must have you", that you are "needed to save the team's season" you are going to make a big head much, much bigger.

    So the kid comes to town thinking (1) he must be God's gift to baseball...that's what's he's been told all his life (2) he must be God's gift to baseball....the major league team *needs* him (3) he must be God's gift to baseball...look how he's "destroyed" minor league pitching.

    This is not a recipe for a youngster to learn and grow through the pains of adjusting to major league life. The cold hard slap of real life shows up in an over reliance on a pitch that's always worked before (the fastball) or overthrowing pitches that worked at lower skill levels.

    The kid has tallent. Can he harness his tallent and learn how to pitch, not throw, in the majors? Probably still to early to tell, but it's not looking promising right now.

    If it were me, I'd take the "marine drill sargent" approach and break him down, and rebuild him plan.
    Looks to me like that is what they did. They rebuilt him into a pitch to contact softee who solved none of his existing issues and removed his biggest strengths and now he frequently lays one in there for the hitter when he needs a strike. He needs to go back to being a high K guy IMO. I'd follow the Volquez model and live with some walks, (but I'm not sure that Bailey has the extreme GB tendencies that Volquez does to get by with so many baserunners). Command in the zone is a different issue. Bailey needs to refine that in the minors for another year. Whatever they do, I think they need somebody better than who they have in house to oversee the task.

    Hire Leo Mazzone or Rick Peterson. Or Both.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  16. #15
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    7,441

    Re: Homer question...

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Looks to me like that is what they did. They rebuilt him into a pitch to contact softee who solved none of his existing issues and removed his biggest strengths and now he frequently lays one in there for the hitter when he needs a strike. He needs to go back to being a high K guy IMO. I'd follow the Volquez model and live with some walks, (but I'm not sure that Bailey has the extreme GB tendencies that Volquez does to get by with so many baserunners). Command in the zone is a different issue. Bailey needs to refine that in the minors for another year. Whatever they do, I think they need somebody better than who they have in house to oversee the task.

    Hire Leo Mazzone or Rick Peterson. Or Both.
    Oh, I agree totally. It's a shame we have nothing but Salvation Navy type instructors, when a real, bone fide Marine Corp Dril Instructor is needed.

    Yea, building him back up does imply that the person doing the building knows feeces from shiney objects.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25