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Thread: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

  1. #1
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Baseball Tonight recently began a feature where they are picking the three greatest players from each franchise. Tonight they featured the Reds and chose Johnny Bench as the greatest Red followed by Pete Rose at number two and Frank Robinson number three. The fans also get to vote and the fans went with Pete Rose number one, Johnny Bench two, and surprisingly, Bucky Walters as the third greatest Red of all-time. Bucky Walters was a great, great pitcher but I'd have to put Robinson or Joe Morgan in the top three.

    My list would go as follows:

    1. Johnny Bench
    2. Pete Rose
    3. Frank Robinson
    3a. Joe Morgan

    Do you guys agree/disagree with the Baseball Tonight list?
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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  3. #2
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Baseball Tonight recently began a feature where they are picking the three greatest players from each franchise. Tonight they featured the Reds and chose Johnny Bench as the greatest Red followed by Pete Rose at number two and Frank Robinson number three. The fans also get to vote and the fans went with Pete Rose number one, Johnny Bench two, and surprisingly, Bucky Walters as the third greatest Red of all-time. Bucky Walters was a great, great pitcher but I'd have to put Robinson or Joe Morgan in the top three.

    My list would go as follows:

    1. Johnny Bench
    2. Pete Rose
    3. Frank Robinson
    3a. Joe Morgan

    Do you guys agree/disagree with the Baseball Tonight list?
    I think people underrate Frank Robinson. Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember what Robby did for the team in the late 50's and early 60's. There was not a player who did more for his team. Rose was the sparkplug who got on base and made things happen, and I appreciate that. Morgan was the same kind of player who could also hit for power on occasion and was a good second baseman.

    Bench was the best catcher of all time and was so important to the BRM's success, but in the dark days of the late 50's and early 60's when the Reds were going through a period much like we are going through today, Robinson put up the numbers and carried the team. Bench, Rose and Morgan were on successful teams where they had some help, but Robinson played on a team that won one pennant and made it to one World Series. He carried the team.

    In 1963 when the Reds had a mediocre 86-76 record (we could only wish for that over the last 10 years), it was Robinson who had an off season. On the teams where Bench, Morgan, and Rose played, one bad season didn't sink the team.

    My list would be:

    1. Robinson
    2. Bench
    3. Rose
    4. Morgan
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  4. #3
    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    I agree that Robinson is underappreciated. Another underappreciated player is George Foster. He had awesome power back when power was rare in the age of giant astroturf concrete stadiums. He has several of the best OPS+ seasons in Reds history.

    You can make a very strong case that Bench was the best catcher in baseball history and Morgan was the best second baseman ever.

    My list:
    1. Robinson
    2. Bench
    3. Morgan
    4. Rose
    5. Foster

  5. #4
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Bench
    Rose
    Larkin
    Robinson
    after those 4 guys, it gets a bit tougher for me.

  6. #5
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Didn't we have this conversation a few weeks back. Cyclone showed pretty clearly that from an analytical perspective, Morgan takes the cake.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  7. #6
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    I'm a little bored so I'm going to list my top three players for each organization.

    Angels:

    1. Nolan Ryan
    2. Bobby Grich
    3. Tim Salmon

    Astros:

    1. Jeff Bagwell
    2. Nolan Ryan
    3. Lance Berkman

    A's:

    1. Lefty Grove
    2. Jimmie Foxx
    3. Rickey Henderson

    Blue Jays:

    1. Roberto Alomar
    2. Roy Halladay
    3. Carlos Delgado

    Braves:

    1. Hank Aaron
    2. Warren Spahn
    3. Greg Maddux

    Brewers:

    1. Robin Yount
    2. Paul Molitor
    3. Cecil Cooper

    Cardinals:

    1. Stan Musial
    2. Rogers Hornsby
    3. Bob Gibson

    Cubs:

    1. Sammy Sosa
    2. Ernie Banks
    3. Ferguson Jenkins

    Diamondbacks:

    1. Randy Johnson
    2. Brandon Webb
    3. Luis Gonzalez

    Dodgers:

    1. Sandy Koufax
    2. Mike Piazza
    3. Jackie Robinson

    Giants:

    1. Willie Mays
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Christy Mathewson

    Indians:

    1. Tris Speaker
    2. Bob Feller
    3. Manny Ramirez

    Mariners:

    1. Ken Griffey Jr.
    2. Alex Rodriguez
    3. Edgar Martinez

    Marlins:

    1. Miguel Cabrera
    2. Josh Beckett
    3. Hanley Ramirez

    Mets:

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Mike Piazza
    3. Dwight Gooden

    Expos/Nationals:

    1. Vladimir Guerrero
    2. Pedro Martinez
    3. Gary Carter

    Orioles:

    1. Frank Robinson
    2. Brooks Robinson
    3. Cal Ripken Jr.

    Padres:

    1. Tony Gwynn Jr.
    2. Trevor Hoffman
    3. Dave Winfield

    Phillies:

    1. Mike Schmidt
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Grover Alexander

    Pirates:

    1. Honus Wagner
    2. Roberto Clemente
    3. Barry Bonds

    Rangers:

    1. Pudge Rodriguez
    2. Juan Gonzalez
    3. Rafael Palmeiro

    Rays:

    1. Scott Kazmir
    2. Fred McGriff
    3. Carl Crawford

    Reds:

    1. Johnny Bench
    2. Pete Rose
    3. Frank Robinson

    Red Sox:

    1. Ted Williams
    2. Cy Young
    3. Roger Clemens

    Rockies:

    1. Todd Helton
    2. Larry Walker
    3. Vinny Castilla

    Royals:

    1. George Brett
    2. Bret Saberhagen
    3. Jeff Montgomery

    Tigers:

    1. Ty Cobb
    2. Al Kaline
    3. Hank Greenberg

    Twins:

    1. Walter Johnson
    2. Harmon Killebrew
    3. Bert Blyleven

    White Sox:

    1. Eddie Collins
    2. Frank Thomas
    3. Luke Appling

    Yankees:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Lou Gehrig
    3. Mickey Mantle

    It's late so I didn't do a ton of research so I may have missed someone. Some of these were incredibly hard...
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Member icehole3's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    People cant forget what the Reds did in the 70's, they were a Dynasty.

    1. Rose
    2. Frank
    3. Morgan
    4. Bench
    5. Doggie

  9. #8
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Quote Originally Posted by icehole3 View Post
    People cant forget what the Reds did in the 70's, they were a Dynasty.

    1. Rose
    2. Frank
    3. Morgan
    4. Bench
    5. Doggie
    They were a dynasty but I think people get caught up in the dynasty as a whole and overrate some players. I have heard people say that Morgan was the best player on that dynasty. But at the same time I think you put Larkin on that team and he may be considered one of the greatest SS of all time. If Larkin had played the majority of his career in the glory days of midwest baseball he may be considered one of the greatest of all time. However a large portion of his career was spent playing in the shadow of NY and Boston and later in his career he missed a bit of time.

    I would rank them like this.
    1. Robinson
    2. Bench
    3. Rose
    4a. Morgan
    4B. Larkin
    5. Perez

  10. #9
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Bench is the greatest Reds player. The fact that he *only played for the Reds* is a tie-breaker, IMO. Robinson and Rose had success in other uniforms.
    Last edited by Johnny Footstool; 08-05-2008 at 12:14 PM.
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  11. #10
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Bench
    Robinson
    Rose
    Larkin
    McPhee/Roush

  12. #11
    Member red-in-la's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    I don't want Pete Rose and greatest Reds players used in the same sentence......much less the same list.

    Rose did more to hurt this franchise and the legacy of the BRM than he could have ever helped it.

    Bench, Morgan, Robinson....
    "Is there a problem officers?"

  13. #12
    Member hebroncougar's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Hard to argue the point, after all, Bench is the greatest catcher to have ever played, and he only put on one uniform.

  14. #13
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    The "Fans" voted for Bucky Walters? Not to take anything away from Mr. Walters, but how many actual fans actually know that name? I don't think even the REDS broadcasters know who Bucky Walters was.

    Makes you wonder what kind of survey that was. I'm guessing that ESPN asked their resident historian/statistician geek to name three REDS and they slapped the title "survey" on it.

    (Sorry for capitalizing REDS, its a habit.)
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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    How can Morgan or Robinson be considered superior to Bench or even Rose?

    If you want to say Robinson's entire career including his Oriole years were superior to Bench and Rose's career then I can somewhat understand. But Robinsons career and Morgan's career as a Red while certainly outstanding just IMO doesn't measure up to the greatness that Bench and Rose achieved while wearing a Reds uniform.

    On the Reds All Time Career list the only category Morgan is at the top is "On Base Percentage". The only total Robinson is at the top on is "Slugging Percentage. Bench on the other hand is the Reds all time leader in "Home Runs, RBI's and Sac Flies". Rose is the Reds all time leader in "Runs, Hits, Total Bases, Doubles, Walks, Runs Created and Extra Base hits".

    Defensively Bench was superior at his position to Morgan and especially Robinson. Bench won ten Gold Gloves, Morgan won five and Robinson won one. Rose did win three Gold Gloves but I think he gets bonus points by playing numerous positions which neither Morgan or Robinson did on a consistent basis.

    Again I can see how people can believe Robinson counting his Oriole years was superior to Bench and Rose but Morgan's non Reds career while with the Astros, Phillies and A's was hardly that noteworthy. Morgan's greatest years 1972-1976 while in a Reds uniform were outstanding but I don't see how they trump the years that Bench and Rose had while in a Reds uniform.

    Bench
    Rose
    Robinson
    Morgan
    Larkin
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: Baseball Tonight picks Johnny Bench as greatest Red ever

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    How can Morgan or Robinson be considered superior to Bench or even Rose?
    Because I'm not going to penalize a player whose career was split amongst two or more teams.

    Morgan played more games with the Reds than any other club, he's best remembered as a Red, and he by far had his best seasons as a Red. Meanwhile, Frank Robinson played 10 full seasons with the Reds compared to only six with the Orioles. I associate both those players as being Reds, not as an Astro or as an Oriole.

    Morgan and Robinson were both greater ballplayers than Bench and Rose. While Bench was an outstanding defensive catcher and arguably the greatest catcher ever, the positional adjustment still isn't enough to offset the massive discrepancy in offensive value between Morgan/Robinson and Bench.
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