Dunn traded to DBacks

[MartyFan]

I don't agree with everyone else that the article by Daugherty is total rubbish.

Do I think Dunn is as bad as he has written? Not at all but it is clear he is not the leader of this team or any team we ever would put around him. I said it when Special K picked him up from the Indians that Brandon Phillips is the leader of this team...yeah, he is cocky, sticks his foot in his mouth and sometimes brash...reminds me of Pete Rose in that way...I hope he stays away from the bets.

I think BP is closer to the effort the ownership and management want each of these young players to be...hustle, team first, passion, community, glad to be a Cincinnati Reds player and fan friendly.

Junior and Dunn may have been good to fans "behind the scenes" and "out of the spotlight" but the organization needs the warm and fuzzy stuff that the average observer can see so that they can become a fan.

Having written this I am nearly certain that the Reds will now trade BP.

[MWM]

The problem is BP isn't exactly well-like by his teammates. And oh yeah, he dogs it down the line as often as Dunn ever did. He's cranky at times and prone to mood swings. Plus, he's much steakier than Dunn and is grumpy when he's struggling. I love BP as a player, but team leader? Nah!

[Team Clark]

Just because Votto has played in the OF doesn't make him any better than Dunn was. Sure Dunn's eventual destination is 1B, that doesn't mean I want to see 1 inning of Votto in LF to make room for what Alonzo MIGHT be.

I can agree with that. However, I wouldn't rule out that it is in the plans. Votto has the ability to apply himself and at least make himself an average LF in a season. I could personally live with that.

[traderumor]

I suggest they hire Stuart Smalley.

With Dunn and Jr gone the Reds can chant

It seems you are going to the other extreme of Daugherty, as if there is nothing to the culture of a team. Talent and culture are complementary elements. You seem to be saying that it is unimportant, or that one has to believe in touchy-feely culture being important, but to totally discount its importance is just as big a mistake as overemphasizing the same.

[LoganBuck]

I don't agree with everyone else that the article by Daugherty is total rubbish.

Do I think Dunn is as bad as he has written? Not at all but it is clear he is not the leader of this team or any team we ever would put around him. I said it when Special K picked him up from the Indians that Brandon Phillips is the leader of this team...yeah, he is cocky, sticks his foot in his mouth and sometimes brash...reminds me of Pete Rose in that way...I hope he stays away from the bets.

I think BP is closer to the effort the ownership and management want each of these young players to be...hustle, team first, passion, community, glad to be a Cincinnati Reds player and fan friendly.

Junior and Dunn may have been good to fans "behind the scenes" and "out of the spotlight" but the organization needs the warm and fuzzy stuff that the average observer can see so that they can become a fan.

Having written this I am nearly certain that the Reds will now trade BP.

Yet the player that has been caught most not running on long flies, not running out pop outs that land in play, and making risky base running gaffes to try and compensate has been Phillips. Lets not pretend that he is 100% all out effort.

[deltachi8]

yep...he wasn't pete rose, the ultimate downfall of any talented player to play in Cincinnati the past 25 years.

[flyer85]

I don't agree with everyone else that the article by Daugherty is total rubbish.

Do I think Dunn is as bad as he has written? Not at all but it is clear he is not the leader of this team or any team we ever would put around him. I said it when Special K picked him up from the Indians that Brandon Phillips is the leader of this team...yeah, he is cocky, sticks his foot in his mouth and sometimes brash...reminds me of Pete Rose in that way...I hope he stays away from the bets.

I think BP is closer to the effort the ownership and management want each of these young players to be...hustle, team first, passion, community, glad to be a Cincinnati Reds player and fan friendly.

Junior and Dunn may have been good to fans "behind the scenes" and "out of the spotlight" but the organization needs the warm and fuzzy stuff that the average observer can see so that they can become a fan.

Having written this I am nearly certain that the Reds will now trade BP.

the team sucks because there is a serious dearth of talent, not a lack of leadership. In trading Dunn and Jr the holes got bigger, the talent pool smaller. They could have Patton in locker room and it wouldn't matter. Hey I'd love to believe the story that if you only want it bad enough you can win and talent isn't all that important. Instead it is "the big lie", the truth is that talent trumps everything else.

Does Jocketty have the ability to fix the Reds? Heck I don't know, he never had to do anything like this in St. Louis.

The question is does the FO have a big enough pair of balls to finish what they started and finish tearing it down(meaning Arroyo, Harang and Phillips go before next season.)

[MWM]

yep...he wasn't pete rose, the ultimate downfall of any talented player to play in Cincinnati the past 25 years.

Bingo.

[MartyFan]

The problem is BP isn't exactly well-like by his teammates. And oh yeah, he dogs it down the line as often as Dunn ever did.

I didn't know that he was not liked by his teammates? I mean outside of Junior and Dunn.

He dogs it down the line...well, now he has seen two of those who were in the back of the pack pulling the sled sent elsewhere...maybe that will inspire a little hustle?

Another thing, I always thought that it was fairly obvious that Dunn and Junior didn't like BP...so, how much of his "dogging it" down to first was built out of "If they can do it, so can I"...a poor attitude for sure but when you have an owner saying glowing things about the dogs why not be a dog sometimes?

[RedEye]

Yet the player that has been caught most not running on long flies, not running out pop outs that land in play, and making risky base running gaffes to try and compensate has been Phillips. Lets not pretend that he is 100% all out effort.

I think BP is 100% effort. I'm just not always sure what he's trying to do.

Seriously though, I'm sick of people justifying the trade because Dunn wasn't a "rah rah" leader. I think anyone who has played in competitive sports has been on teams with "rah rah" leaders and teams with "laid back prankster" leaders. Both types can be effective if given the right coach and the right supporting cast. The tragedy of the Reds of the past five years or so is that they've never had the talent to surround either one.

[RedEye]

I didn't know that he was not liked by his teammates? I mean outside of Junior and Dunn.

He dogs it down the line...well, now he has seen two of those who were in the back of the pack pulling the sled sent elsewhere...maybe that will inspire a little hustle?

Another thing, I always thought that it was fairly obvious that Dunn and Junior didn't like BP...so, how much of his "dogging it" down to first was built out of "If they can do it, so can I"...a poor attitude for sure but when you have an owner saying glowing things about the dogs why not be a dog sometimes?

Comments about leadership aside, I think its fairly ridiculous to try to speculate about the interpersonal relationships on this team. We can construct some kind of sense of what types of personalities these guys have, but we'll never really know what it was like to be in the locker room or in the dugout. Bottom line is that there are quantifiable elements of players and unquantifiable ones. Teams that pay too much for the unquantifiables often end up losing.

[WVRedsFan]

Can you imagine tomorrow's lineup?

LF - Patterson .189/.221/.549
SS - Keppinger .263/.312/.663
RF - Bruce .273/.320/.766
2B - Phillips .273/.321/.763
3B - Encarnacion .250/.338/.825
1B - Phillips .178/.245/.467
CF - Dickerson .000/.000/.000
C - Hannigan .500/.500/1.750

I can't wait to see that, can you?

[traderumor]

the team sucks because there is a serious dearth of talent, not a lack of leadership. In trading Dunn and Jr the holes got bigger, the talent pool smaller. They could have Patton in locker room and it wouldn't matter. Hey I'd love to believe the story that if you only want it bad enough you can win and talent isn't all that important. Instead it is "the big lie", the truth is that talent trumps everything else.

Does Jocketty have the ability to fix the Reds? Heck I don't know, he never had to do anything like this in St. Louis.

The question is does the FO have a big enough pair of balls to finish what they started and finish tearing it down(meaning Arroyo, Harang and Phillips go before next season.)

That's a strawman. No one is saying with the whole culture/leadership angle that it is about "wanting it really, really bad." When I hear repeatedly players saying things like "this isn't like other places, there's not the same pressure to win," you have a culture problem. Is Dunn/Griffey promoting that culture? I don't know exactly, but that does seem to be their approach to the game...do my best and if it doesn't get it done, well, toss me a cold one and let's come back tomorrow. Dunn himself said recently that he noticed a change in people caring about losing. That speaks volumes and is a real problem for a sports franchise in any sport. That is called apathy, and it needs to pulled up by its roots, not watered and fertilized with $15-20M a year.

[Mario-Rijo]

the team sucks because there is a serious dearth of talent, not a lack of leadership. In trading Dunn and Jr the holes got bigger, the talent pool smaller. They could have Patton in locker room and it wouldn't matter. Hey I'd love to believe the story that if you only want it bad enough you can win and talent isn't all that important. Instead it is "the big lie", the truth is that talent trumps everything else.

Does Jocketty have the ability to fix the Reds? Heck I don't know, he never had to do anything like this in St. Louis.

The question is does the FO have a big enough pair of balls to finish what they started and finish tearing it down(meaning Arroyo, Harang and Phillips go before next season.)

Arroyo I can understand assuming a good enough return. Harang and Phillips I don't agree with unless we were to get some seriously major hauls. Like the Bartolo Colon deal of which BP was a part of, but those deals no longer happen anymore.

[MWM]

He dogs it down the line...well, now he has seen two of those who were in the back of the pack pulling the sled sent elsewhere...maybe that will inspire a little hustle?

Another thing, I always thought that it was fairly obvious that Dunn and Junior didn't like BP...so, how much of his "dogging it" down to first was built out of "If they can do it, so can I"...a poor attitude for sure but when you have an owner saying glowing things about the dogs why not be a dog sometimes?

Hogwash. A "hustle" obsessed poster like yourself blaming BP's lack of hustle on Junior and Dunn? That's rich.

Suuurrrrrre, that's the type of "leader" the team needs.... a guy who has an "if they can do it so can I" (your words) attitude. You lay out an argument for why he dogs it down the line that paints a picture of the exat opposite of leader .... a follower. And of bad examples to boot.

Let the winning begin. We have our leader.