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Thread: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

  1. #1
    HS Athletic Director alexad's Avatar
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    Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    I have not heard anyone really react to the fact the Reds have traded their entire Starting outfield this season. Hamilton, Griffey and Dunn.

    Really makes you wonder. If we were going to trade Dunn and Griffey, would Hamilton have been traded with Jockety running the club. We went from three outfielders who could produce to none, with the exception of Bruce who has nobody to look up to or teach him how to be a big leaguer.

    Trading Hamilton was a mistake in my opinion and even with Volquez, we could use Hamilton right now.

    When was the last itme a team traded their entire starting outfield in less than a season??
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    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    I have no regrets whatsoever about trading Hamilton. It was a nice example of trading value to get value. Coming into this season, Hamilton had risk and Volquez had some risk. Both teams agreed to exchange high risk, high reward players. I'm glad that it's worked out relatively well for both teams.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

  4. #3
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    I don't think WJ would have traded a player of Hamilton's caliber. I believe he would have sought to solve the team's pitching problems differently. Having Volquez is great, but I think the primary reason Hamilton was traded was the assumption that the outfield was set with Dunn, Griffey, and somebody to hold the place in CF until Bruce arrived. That assumption is what cost us Josh.

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    Administrator Boss-Hog's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I don't think WJ would have traded a player of Hamilton's caliber. I believe he would have sought to solve the team's pitching problems differently. Having Volquez is great, but I think the primary reason Hamilton was traded was the assumption that the outfield was set with Dunn, Griffey, and somebody to hold the place in CF until Bruce arrived. That assumption is what cost us Josh.
    Maybe for 2008, but I can't imagine even the most naive Reds front office employee factored Griffey into any plans beyond this year.

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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Some front office employees of fairly high rank seem to have factored contention into 2008. Who knows what they might have assumed? I'm not at all convinced that there wasn't some assumption that Griffey would be here not only in 2009 but in 2010 too.

  7. #6
    Just The Big Picture macro's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad View Post
    When was the last itme a team traded their entire starting outfield in less than a season??
    I doubt it was the last time, and one of the three was a free agent, but the 1981 Reds starting outfield of Griffey, Foster, and Collins ended up in New York before the start of the 1982 season. Griffey was traded to the Yankees, Collins signed with them as a free agent, and Foster was traded to the Mets.

  8. #7
    RZ Chamber of Commerce Unassisted's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Hamilton was probably the most tradable of the three, but I suspect there would not have been as much sentiment to unload him if the 3 trades had happened in reverse order.
    /r/reds

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    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    I don't think WJ would have traded a player of Hamilton's caliber. I believe he would have sought to solve the team's pitching problems differently.
    You have to give quality caliber to get quality caliber. I don't think anyone can justify condemning that trade.

    Having Volquez is great, but I think the primary reason Hamilton was traded was the assumption that the outfield was set with Dunn, Griffey, and somebody to hold the place in CF until Bruce arrived. That assumption is what cost us Josh.
    How could anyone make the assumption that Griffey or Dunn would be back???
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    How could anyone have assumed this team would contend? Yet the front office apparently did. I'm not "condemning" the Volquez trade. I love having Volquez. I do think we overpaid and diminished the offense terribly. I agree you have to give up value for value. But notice if you who think there was no assumption that Griffey and Dunn would be back, then what did the front office think the outfield was going to look like in 2009 with Josh gone? Bruce and who else?

  11. #10
    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    How could anyone have assumed this team would contend? Yet the front office apparently did. I'm not "condemning" the Volquez trade. I love having Volquez. I do think we overpaid and diminished the offense terribly. I agree you have to give up value for value. But notice if you who think there was no assumption that Griffey and Dunn would be back, then what did the front office think the outfield was going to look like in 2009 with Josh gone? Bruce and who else?
    There was this theory. The theory was that the Reds were going to win in 2008. The kids--Votto, Phillips, Encarnacion, Bruce, and the one-two punch of Volquez and Cueto were all going to perform. Krivsky valued Gonzalez and thought Dunn and Griffey would continue at 2007 levels. That being the case, attendance would soar and money would be plentiful. Patterson would be adequate in CF with all the other hitters hitting on all cylinders. And Freel would be there to add the spark along with Hopper.

    Where it got derailed was that no one could have predicted a Dunn and Griffey slump in the early going. Patterson hit 60 points below his career average. Freel and Gonzalez got hurt. Hatteberg's age caught up with him and Ecarnacion proved to be a problem. Volquez came out gangbusters and after an initial splash, Cueto proved human. Harang wasn't like the last two years. Too many people who were not worthy were counted upon. 2008 was the year and it all went to crap. It cost Krivsky his job and the team a season. Too many risky moves. And all is blamed on the manager instead of where it belongs--on everyone, including the owner, the GM, and even the fan base who bought this bill of goods.

    My high school baseball coach always said that good pitching is wonderful, but you better be able to score 5 or 6 runs a game to win. The Reds did not. Would Hamilton have helped? Sure, but how could we replace Volquez's pitching? I don't know.

    All that is done and over with and it's time to correct the problems. So far, i like what I see. No, I wouldn't have traded Adam Dunn, the team's best player IMHO, but I can see where Jocketty is going. Players with an upside -- solid defensively sprinkled with free agent signings to fill in the gaps. Yes, he traded an aging Griffey for prospects with an upside. He traded Dunn for the same thing, all the while reducing payroll. No Stantons or Majewskis allowed. The purging has begun. No more David Rosses. No more Ryan Freels (watch him go in early November). No more marginal people.

    I could be wrong, but what I saw was a ship with no plan but win now, not having any idea on how to win now or ever. That's over. At least I hope so.
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Agree with your analysis, WVReds fan, except some of us never thought for a moment that that whole remarkable series of "ifs" would somehow magically pan out. I'm very encouraged that finally we see some consistency in the moves being made, and, unlike you, I like the Dunn trade, for the simple reason that it allows for the kind of flexibility WJ will need in rebuilding an organization with so many problems. I hope that finally someone has recognized it will take several years at least to build a contender. Now I just hope nobody is worrying about being 82-80, or getting excited about being the possible wild card, but instead that the goal is to win every game.

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    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Jocketty is clearly a different breed of GM than we've had. He has the experience and confidence in himself to make major moves even if the majority of folks disagree immediately. 2009 may not be as great as Bob C wants but if he lets Walt keep running things as he sees fit, I wouldn't bet against things looking considerably better in 2010. That said, I'm not ruling 2009 out completely as a decent year, either.

    For all the folks here who have said that Junior and Dunn have sent the wrong message, been too laid back, etc, well, now the proof should be in the pudding. Personally, I don't see it as a leadership issue but a matter of "fit" for the type of club that Jocketty envisions and WK claimed to ascribe to. It may seem counter-intuitive but I think assembling a team for power in GAB was all wrong all along. In GAB the power will take care of itself.

    Go for speed, defense and pitching that takes advantage of the fact that GAB, for whatever quirky reason, year in and year out, suppresses ground ball BABIP. Speedy outfield defense to allay the above average flyball-safe percentage of GAB and tight infield D to take advantage of the natural edge GAB gives there and find groundball pitchers.

    Look to OBP and speed with the offense, and groundball tendencies on the staff. Volquez is a stud waiting for a park like GAB, Harang, OTOH, has learned to pitch there but his effectiveness is tempered because he's a flyball pitcher. If he struggles a bit he gets hurt quickly by the long ball. Volquez can struggle but generally doesn't allow homers or long flyballs a lot - he gets hurt by walks and line drives when he's off. Meaning he has a bit more rope since he rarely gives up big shots that kill him all at once. When his arm is sound Aaron is a better "pitcher" while Volquez is still more "thrower" but in GAB EV will probably always have better peripherals due mainly to HR pct allowed.

    Back to offense. Get Votto like guys and GAB will magnify their HR numbers naturally. Get Dickerson in CF and if he can maintain an OBP at .350 or better he'll show some GAB power, too, while cutting down those gaps a lot on defense. GAB is made for line drive hitters. Brandon Phillips would be ideal here if he got on base more, EE if his defense was steadier. Alonso is a terrific "type" for GAB. Acquisitions like Volquez, and Buck give me hope the Reds FO finally sees how GAB cries for gb pitchers (a fact that has been touted on RZ for years) and power pitchers like Harang and Cueto (though I think GAB will inflate their peripherals - these may be the road warriors of the staff).

    I hated Bowden, I loathed O'Brien, I liked Krivsky but never really trusted his judgement entirely. Jocketty I believe in entirely. He'll make some mistakes, sure, every GM does, even the vaunted Billy Beane. But he'll get a lot more right than wrong and keep things moving in a consistent direction.
    Last edited by RedlegJake; 08-13-2008 at 10:38 AM.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    They can trade the whole team as long as they turn things around.

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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    My favorite line from the movie Miracle. "The name on the front of the jersey is a hell of a lot more important than the one on the back!" I have to keep reminding myself of that truth this week.
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    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
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    Re: Reds have traded entire starting outfield in less than a year

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRedsFan View Post
    There was this theory. The theory was that the Reds were going to win in 2008. The kids--Votto, Phillips, Encarnacion, Bruce, and the one-two punch of Volquez and Cueto were all going to perform.
    Didn’t they perform well in 2008 compared to their career numbers or for a rookie?

    Code:
    Phillips -
    Though not a cleanup hitter, most knew, especially against right handed pitchers
    Batting #4 		.283 .335 .484 .819
    vs. Right -		.252 .294 .387 .681
    vs. Left -		.321 .381 .629 1.010
    
    Career stats - 		.264 .310 .429 .739
    2008
    Season stats - 		.273 .321 .465 .786
    Season stats higher than career stats
    Pre-All Star - 		.280 .323 .476 .799
    Best months
    April			.283 .330 .500 .830
    May			.292 .342 .557 .899
    Months declined at cleanup:
    June 			.262 .304 .374 .678
    July 			.278 .330 .402 .732
    August 		        .211 .268 .447 .715
    
    Encarncion -
    Who has hit well as a cleanup hitter, most knew
    Batting #4		.286 .373 .535 .908
    vs. Right -		.225 .299 .461 .760
    vs. Left -		.312 .427 .550 .977
    
    Career -		.268 .346 .459 .805
    2008
    Season -		.251 .339 .485 .825
    Season stats higher than career stats
    Last 7 -		.300 .417 .650 1.067
    Pre-All Star -		.259 .341 .481 .822
    Post-All Star -		.215 .326 .506 .832
    Best months
    April 			.293 .369 .576 .945
    June			.294 .422 .603 1.025
    July			.291 .367 .620 .987
    Slump months:
    May -			.172 .228 .247 .475
    August -		.171 .275 .371 .646
    
    First full major league season
    Votto -
    Batting #2 		.294 .314 .412 .726
    Batting #5 		.263 .354 .561 .915
    Batting #7 		.302 .366 .448 .814
    
    vs. Right -		.281 .343 .449 .792
    vs. Left -		.277 .349 .446 .795
    
    2008
    Season - 		.280 .345 .448 .793
    Pre-All Star - 		.279 .350 .464 .814
    Post-All Star - 	.282 .325 .385 .710
    April 			.308 .341 .538 .879
    May 			.281 .385 .528 .913
    August 		        .333 .355 .467 .822
    Slump months:
    June -			.257 .315 .386 .701
    July -			.261 .337 .352 .689
    
    Rookie season
    Bruce -
    Though not a lead off hitter, most should have known
    Batting #1 		.232 .260 .389 .649
    Batting #2 		.344 .432 .516 .948
    Batting #3 		.259 .295 .500 .795
    
    Season - 		.269 .316 .439 .755
    Pre-All Star -		.270 .335 .429 .764
    Post-All Star -		.278 .293 .474 .767
    Last 7 Days -		.296 .321 .593 .914
    Best months
    May -			.579 .680 .895 1.575
    August -		.308 .325 .667 .992
    Slump months:
    June -			.223 .274 .340 .614
    July 99 -		.253 .282 .384 .666
    
    Edinson Volquez
    W/L 14-5 ERA 2.86 SO 146 WHIP 1.28
    
    22 yr old rookie
    Cueto 
    W-L 7-11 ERA 5.01 SO 129 WHIP 1.39
    Krivsky valued Gonzalez and thought Dunn and Griffey would continue at 2007 levels. That being the case, attendance would soar and money would be plentiful. Patterson would be adequate in CF with all the other hitters hitting on all cylinders. And Freel would be there to add the spark along with Hopper.
    Code:
    Griffey:
    Not a number three hitters or regular right fielder, most knew.
    Career stats -		.288 .373 .548 .920
    Season stats -		.241 .348 .415 .763
    A decline, career stats to season stats
    vs. Right -		.264 .372 .445 .817
    vs. Left -		.200 .308 .368 .676
    Best months -
    July -			.271 .386 .541 .927
    Slump months
    April -			.255 .339 .429 .768
    May -			.250 .336 .360 .696
    June -			.205 .370 .425 .795 
    August -		.200 .273 .200 .473
    
    Patterson 
    Not a leadoff hitter most knew, 
    is a centerfielder adequate as a starter if they cannot hit at lead off?
    3 year 2005/2007 stats as a lead off
    Batting #1 		.212 .256 .338 .594
    Batting #6 		.303 .335 .426 .761
    Batting #7 		.272 .320 .475 .795
    
    Career -		.254 .293 .408 .701
    Season -		.194 .225 .335 .560
    Well below his career stats, yet his lead off stats were comparable
    vs. Left -		.146 .186 .146 .332
    vs. Right -		.198 .228 .365 .593
    Best months
    April -			.225 .292 .488 .780
    Slump months
    May -			.180 .180 .197 .377
    June -			.156 .156 .311 .467
    July -			.111 .158 .111 .269
    August -		.233 .258 .367 .625
    
    Adam Dunn
    Career -		.247 .380 .520 .900
    Season -		.234 .375 .529 .905
    Batted comparable to his career stats, slightly above
    Batting #2 -		.261 .393 .565 .958 
    Batting #5 -		.253 .396 .549 .945 
    Batting #6 -		.233 .351 .667 1.018
    
    vs. Left 		.200 .365 .417 .782 
    vs. Right 		.248 .377 .578 .955
    Best months
    April -			.232 .396 .415 .811 
    May -			.284 .429 .691 1.120 
    July -			.310 .381 .762 1.143 
    Slump months
    June -			.161 .342 .425 .767 
    August -		.139 .244 .167 .411
    Management should have had reason to know about the risk with the following players, before the season started.
    Gonzalez
    May 28, 2008 Transferred to 60-day DL March 30, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Compression fracture, left knee) August 22, 2007 Reinstated from bereavement list August 15, 2007 Placed on bereavement list July 31, 2007 Reinstated from restricted list July 21, 2007 Placed on restricted list July 21, 2007 Reinstated from bereavement list July 21, 2007 Placed on restricted list July 14, 2007 Placed on bereavement list July 14, 2007 Placed on bereavement list April 17, 2007 Reinstated from bereavement list April 12, 2007 Placed on bereavement list

    Freel
    July 31, 2008 Transferred to 60-day DL June 04, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Hamstring surgery, right knee) September 26, 2007 Transferred to 60-day DL August 07, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn cartilage, right knee) July 03, 2007 Recalled from minors rehab July 03, 2007 Removed from 15-day DL June 24, 2007 Sent to minors for rehabilitation May 29, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Head/neck contusions) April 16, 2007 Signed with Cincinnati Reds December 19, 2005 Signed with Cincinnati Reds September 05, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL August 16, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn cartilage, right knee) July 20, 2005 Recalled from minors rehab July 20, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL July 15, 2005 Sent to minors for rehabilitation June 25, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Left foot inflammation)

    Hopper
    July 17, 2008 Transferred to 60-day DL July 05, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right elbow surgery - out for season) June 18, 2008 Recalled from minors rehab June 18, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL June 10, 2008 Sent to minors for rehabilitation April 23, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Right elbow inflammation) April 18, 2007 Recalled from minors rehab April 18, 2007 Removed from 15-day DL April 09, 2007 Sent to minors for rehabilitation April 01, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Bruised heel)

    Hairston
    August 01, 2008 Recalled from minors rehab August 01, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL July 29, 2008 Sent to minors for rehabilitation July 17, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained right hamstring) June 26, 2008 Recalled from minors rehab June 26, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL June 23, 2008 Sent to minors for rehabilitation June 10, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Fractured left thumb) April 21, 2008 Purchased from minors March 03, 2008 Signed to a minor league contract October 30, 2007 Declared free agency August 29, 2007 Removed from 15-day DL August 09, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Lower back soreness) June 05, 2007 Recalled from minors rehab June 05, 2007 Removed from 15-day DL May 26, 2007 Sent to minors for rehabilitation May 19, 2007 Placed on 15-day DL (Pinched nerve in neck)

    Mercker June 03, 2008 Placed on 60-day DL (Recurring lower back pain) May 29, 2008 Recalled from minors rehab May 29, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL May 22, 2008 Sent to minors for rehabilitation May 09, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Lower back pain) March 31, 2008 Purchased from minors February 08, 2008 Signed to a minor league contract November 02, 2006 Removed from 60-day DL November 02, 2006 Declared free agency August 14, 2006 Transferred to 60-day DL August 12, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Left elbow surgery) August 07, 2006 Removed from 15-day DL July 22, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Left elbow inflammation) May 26, 2006 Removed from 15-day DL May 14, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Left elbow inflammation)

    Where it got derailed was that no one could have predicted a Dunn and Griffey slump in the early going.
    Griffey did slump in the early going, though Griffey has been in decline for some time due to aging and past injuries prior to the 2008 season.
    Code:
    Griffey
    Career  .288 .373 .548 .920
    April -	.255 .339 .429 .768
    May -	.250 .336 .360 .696
    June -	.205 .370 .425 .795 
    August -.200 .273 .200 .473
    Dunn did not slump in April or May, 
    his on base percentage was comparable to his career on base percentage.
    Career - .247 .380 .520 .900
    Career  OBP .380
    April - OBP .396
    May -   OBP .429
    Patterson hit 60 points below his career average. Freel and Gonzalez got hurt. Hatteberg's age caught up with him and Ecarnacion proved to be a problem.
    Patterson season stats are comparable with his three stats as a leadoff batter

    Code:
    3 year 2005/2007 stats as a lead off
    Batting #1 		.212 .256 .338 .594
    Season -		.194 .225 .335 .560
    He has not been given a chance to hit down in the order where his BA is 60 points higher.
    And has been hitting better as of late.
    Batting #6 		.303 .335 .426 .761
    Batting #7 		.272 .320 .475 .795
    Volquez came out gangbusters and after an initial splash, Cueto proved human.
    Both look very good to me, especially compared to some others
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/...ype=2&type=reg

    Volquez game logs
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=6401
    Cueto game logs
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...playerId=28955

    Harang wasn't like the last two years.
    Not since being used in relief.

    Very reliable before that.
    Harang
    Season Game Log
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=5181

    Too many people who were not worthy were counted upon.
    2008 was the year and it all went to crap.
    Too many risky moves.
    I am not convinced that the stats support these comments on the above players, with the exception of Griffey, Patterson, Bako, Hairston, Mercker, the players with age or with a history of injuries.

    No, I wouldn't have traded Adam Dunn, the team's best player IMHO, but I can see where Jocketty is going. Players with an upside -- solid defensively sprinkled with free agent signings to fill in the gaps. Yes, he traded an aging Griffey for prospects with an upside. He traded Dunn for the same thing, all the while reducing payroll.
    Isn’t that what past GM’s have done, traded offensive players for pitching and defense?
    2001 forward
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2001.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2002.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2003.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2004.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2005.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2006.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2007.shtml

    Bowden ?
    Kullman Guillen for Harang
    O’Brien Casey for Williams
    Krivsky Pena, Hamilton, Kearns, Lopez for Majewski, Bray, Thompson, Arroyo, Volquez
    And now Jocketty trading Dunn, and Griffey for pitching and defense.
    Weren’t they all unloading salary?

    No Stantons or Majewskis allowed. The purging has begun. No more David Rosses. No
    more Ryan Freels (watch him go in early November). No more marginal people.
    I wish that you were right, that would seem to be really nice.

    The Reds cannot afford 25 league average or above. The GM must fill out the team with some
    type of filler/fodder.
    Hairston, Freel
    Valentine
    Bako
    Patterson
    Fogg
    Majewski
    Belisle
    Coffey

    Links:
    Phillips http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=5031
    Encarncion http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=5904
    Votto http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...playerId=28670
    Bruce http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...playerId=28954
    Volquez http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=6401
    Cueto http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...playerId=28955
    Griffey http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=2148
    Patterson http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=4239
    Gonzalez http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=3916
    Freel http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=4629
    Hopper http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...playerId=28554
    Hairston http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=3966
    Mercker http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...?playerId=2284
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 08-13-2008 at 02:25 PM.


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