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Thread: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Rockies manager: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    By Hal McCoy

    Staff Writer

    Sunday, August 24, 2008

    DENVER Colorado manager Clint Hurdle knows Joey Votto and Jay Bruce can hit he doesn't need to watch closely to see that Votto had six hits in the first four games against the Rockies this year.

    Hurdle watches other aspects of a young player's game, and he scores both Votto and Bruce on a high scale.

    "I like both," he said. "I've watched them more not swinging the bat.

    When I like guys, I tend to watch more when they are not hitting. That's when they create separation from being a good hitter to a good player.

    "There are always handfuls of guys who were born to hit and want to hit, but I like to watch their intensity on defense and what they do when they get on the bases," Hurdle added.

    And how are they?

    "They've been showing up very good in my eyes," he said. "Votto's splits of hitting right and left are better right now than Bruce's, but that takes time. Our Brad Hawpe was not good, and this year he has having a breakthrough year against left-handed pitchers.

    "I notice both Votto and Bruce are aggressive hitters, look to be confident hitters and seem to enjoy what they are doing," Hurdle said. "They both have age on their side and skills. That's a great combination to have."

    Delay on call-ups

    Any September call-ups, when rosters can be expanded from 25 to 40, will be delayed by the Cincinnati Reds because Class AAA Louisville is in the International League playoffs and Reds manager Dusty Baker said, "That's a good delay for them, playing for something."

    The call-up candidates on the 40-man roster when they are made: pitchers Homer Bailey and Todd Coffey, infielder Paul Janish and not much else because, as Baker said, "Most are already here."

    Baker, though, believes call-ups should be a reward for those who have done well, whether on the roster or not, and singled out left-handed pitcher Adam Pettyjohn.

    "He is one guy nobody has talked about he's a crafty lefty and is 14-5 this year," Baker said. "He won 15 last year (Actually, 16 at Class AAA Nashville, Tenn., and Class AA Huntsville, Ala.). I don't buy that about guys not having enough fastball. It's if they know how to win."

    Is Frazier too big?

    Baker was watching the Little League World Series on his office TV, and somebody commented on how big the Hawaiian pitcher was.

    "You know, Todd Frazier (Class A Sarasota, Fla., shortstop) played on the Toms River, N.J., team that won the Little League World Series (1998)," Baker said. "He has 12 homers, but I'm thinking he might be too big (6-foot-3, 215 pounds to play shortstop.

    "But then I see Colorado shortstop Troy Tulowitzki (6-3, 205) and, man, that whole Colorado infield is big," Baker said. "Maybe Frazier isn't too big."

    Rockies third baseman Ian Stewart is 6-3, 205, second baseman Jeff Baker is 6-2, 210 and first baseman Garrett Atkins is 6-3, 215.

    An added duty

    Due to scheduling conflicts Friday, Aug. 23, there was no "official" official scorer at the Reds-Rockies game, so the duty was shared by the media relations directors, Rob Butcher of the Reds and Jay Alves of the Rockies.

    They did well, making all the right calls, but one fan disagreed and yelled after they ruled a base hit on one play, "Hey, official scorer. That was an error."

    Said Butcher, "Now I feel official."

    Quote of the day

    Jeremy Affeldt was looking at his National League Championship ring, presented to him by the Colorado Rockies Friday night (he was a member of the Rockies last year, a team that lost the World Series to the Boston Red Sox): "This is a loser's ring. But it's the nicest loser's ring I ever saw."

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/con...snotesweb.html

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?
    It is beyond me Dirt and trust me Dirt Hurdles not a good head coach, Rockies won in spite of him last year.
    2006 Redzone mock Draftee's- 1(st) Daniel Bard(redsox), 1(st sup)( Jordan Walden (Angels), 2(nd) rd.- Zach Britton(Orioles), 3(rd) Blair Erickson(Cardinals), 3(rd) Tim Norton( Yankees),(cuz its a Tim Hortons thing

    Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory... lasts forever.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Well, let's just jump (or should I say dump) on Dusty again. He was obviously speaking in the vernacular and meaning '...know how to pitch'. Just as the next poster referred to Hurdle as a 'head coach', I was adroit enough to understand that he meant 'manager'...I think most people would be. In both cases!

    Rem

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?


    The reason he said "knows how to win" is it's in the vernacular of baseball players and managers. They don't know that the phrase has been ridiculed and derided here and on message boards across the cyber-baseball world.

    They don't share the inside joke that's common knowledge here. They don't realize that every time they say it in public, many RedsZoners proclaim that it's evidence that they don't know anything about baseball.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    Well, let's just jump (or should I say dump) on Dusty again. He was obviously speaking in the vernacular and meaning '...know how to pitch'. Just as the next poster referred to Hurdle as a 'head coach', I was adroit enough to understand that he meant 'manager'...I think most people would be. In both cases!

    Rem
    I agree. The Dusty bashing on every little blurb is amazing. "Know how to pitch" and "know how to win" are practically interchangeable in baseball lingo. It's merely sloppy vernacular NOT some great indicator of how awful a manager Baker is. And I'd point out - he DOES have 40 years IN the game, not in the stands, in front of TVs or radios or calculators.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?
    It's exactly the phrase George Foster used to describe the Big Red Machine when asked the difference between the Reds and the Mets, whom he played for after the Reds: "The Mets had some talent, not like the Reds, but the bigger difference was that the Reds knew how to win baseball games." It's a phrase that has been in circulation for years and obviously has meaning to those who play the game.
    "Don't trust any statistics you did not fake yourself."--Winston Churchill

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?
    Statements like that hilarious; but also very misunderstood! People like to jump on them. But what rem and rfs state about the vernacular is very true to. And Dusty is not the only one who says things like that.

    It's baseball eubonics.
    Last edited by GAC; 08-24-2008 at 10:37 AM.
    "panic" only comes from having real expectations

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Maybe Dusty should hire a PR man to write his material for him ahead of time.

    The picking apart of his quotes is really getting old.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Hurdle loves Votto? Great, it will be easier to trade him for Holliday. Get 'er done!
    Go BLUE!!!

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Maybe Dusty should hire a PR man to write his material for him ahead of time.

    The picking apart of his quotes is really getting old.
    This isn't about picking apart Dusty's quotes.

    It's about how ridiculous it is that a Major League manager is making it seem noteworthy that a 31-year-old pitcher won 16 games with a 4.07 ERA between AA and AAA in 2007 and has won 14 games with a 4.66 ERA this season.

    If he wants to say "Pettyjohn's had a good year, so rewarding him might be a good idea," then I have no issue with that. But to actually imply that winning 15-16 games at that age in AAA means he could get things done in the majors is absurd.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    It would be one thing if "knows how to win" actually did have some meaning behind it, if it was merely a relatively inarticulate short-hand for a combination of talent, skills, and work-ethic. But we've seen with Dusty that it doesn't. Dusty told us earlier this year that Josh Fogg knows how to win, as evidenced by his 10+ wins the last two year. He meant it literally.

    A player who "knows how to win" is like a girl with "a nice personality". It's one thing if the girl actually is really cool, funny, etc and you want to highlight those things. But when she is, 99% of the time you actually highlight those particulars. When you use the tired phrase, it's because you aren't really talking about her personality, you're talking implicitly about her looks.

    In my experience "Knows how to win" is used in two ways:
    1) You like the guy/team but can't find ability based compliments that won't make you look hypocritical (because other players have more ability). In this case, Adam Pettyjohn is in not a better pitcher or call-up option than about 4 other guys. But Dusty likes him, so he's "crafty" and "knows how to win". Dusty has a real love affair with guys short on talent who keep scrapping.

    2) It's what you say about somebody who is talented but you want to sound more insightful than merely pointing out that talent basis. It's an appeal to character. Some people simply feel more comfortable pretending we're all equal except for our work ethic and experience.

    I'm done harping on Dusty the manager. Sure, I'll still bemoan specific decisions as points of discussion in the abstract, but there's no point in complaining about Dusty. To borrow another cliche', he is what he is. He's nearly everything I expected him to be, with the exception of his better than expected handling of the pitching staff. He's a people person, not a thinker. But at the end of the day, the #1 determinant on this team's success is the amount of talent Jocketty puts on the 25 man roster. And while Dusty make poor use of what's he got, what's he got isn't enough.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 08-24-2008 at 12:22 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
    This isn't about picking apart Dusty's quotes.

    It's about how ridiculous it is that a Major League manager is making it seem noteworthy that a 31-year-old pitcher won 16 games with a 4.07 ERA between AA and AAA in 2007 and has won 14 games with a 4.66 ERA this season.

    If he wants to say "Pettyjohn's had a good year, so rewarding him might be a good idea," then I have no issue with that. But to actually imply that winning 15-16 games at that age in AAA means he could get things done in the majors is absurd.
    If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.
    Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts. We can spin it any way you want. Bottom line is that it's odd that in a year such as this, when talk moves to prospects getting an opportunity and building for the future, Dusty focuses on the 31 year old career minor leaguer who looks an awful lot like a left handed Josh Fogg. Dude loves him some underdog.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts. We can spin it any way you want. Bottom line is that it's odd that in a year such as this, when talk moves to prospects getting an opportunity and building for the future, Dusty focuses on the 31 year old career minor leaguer who looks an awful lot like a left handed Josh Fogg. Dude loves him some underdog.
    If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

    There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).


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