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Thread: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

  1. #16
    Member Jpup's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

    There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).
    He has an ERA of almost 5 in AAA at 31. I don't think it would turn out well.
    "My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton

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  3. #17
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

    There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).
    Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks.

  4. #18
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks.
    Agreed DD. I'd list Maloney, Ramierez, Thompson and even Livingston as guys I'd give September starts too ahead of Pettyjohn.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.
    No, he didn't say "Adam Pettyjohn is a guy who knows how to win."

    But he specifically brought up Pettyjohn when no one else has ever mentioned his name and then proceeded to say "he's a crafty lefty and is 14-5 this year" and then later says it's about whether a guy knows how to win.

    I don't think it's a huge leap or some kind of stretch to say that he does see Pettyjohn as someone who "knows how to win." I think any reasonable person would understand that's what Dusty was saying even though he didn't explicitly say it.

  6. #20
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks.
    More than one guy can get called up.

  7. #21
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    More than one guy can get called up.
    Sure, but there is only so many starts to go around. We already have 5 guys. I assume they still want to see Bailey, Thompson (if healthy) and Livingston. Thats three guys right there, then there is Ramirez who is on the 40 man who has the stuff and the numbers. Then there is also Maloney, who isn't on the 40 man, but likely more a part of the future than Pettyjohn.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Dusty's comments on Todd Frazier is what has me scratching my head. Dusty says Frazier may be able to stay at shortstop because he's similar in size to Tulowitzki. Size doesn't mean anything. Tulowitzki has quickness, good hands, and solid range whereas Frazier lacks the range to stick at SS. His size has nothing to do with it.

  9. #23
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Dusty's comments on Todd Frazier is what has me scratching my head. Dusty says Frazier may be able to stay at shortstop because he's similar in size to Tulowitzki. Size doesn't mean anything. Tulowitzki has quickness, good hands, and solid range whereas Frazier lacks the range to stick at SS. His size has nothing to do with it.
    Yeah, but its Dusty Baker.... the guy talks, he doesn't think.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    From the Reds:
    --Joey Votto had three hits for the Reds Saturday night, his 16th three-hit game this season, twice as many as any other rookie in the National League. Geovany Soto is next with eight such games. Kansas City’s Mike Aviles leads A.L. rookies with 13 three-hit games.

    --According to Elias Sports Bureau, Joey Votto (15hr) and Jay Bruce (14) are the first pair of Reds rookies ever to produce at least 14 home runs each in the same season...most likely, the Reds will be the only team in the Majors this season to have 2 rookies produce at least 14 homers each.

    http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    I read Dusty's statement this way: "We have no depth at all in the minors so we're going to throw this crap against the wall and see if it sticks!"

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    So, are there actually pitchers in the majors that don't "know how to pitch", and position players that don't know how to "play the game the right way"? I don't remember too many pitchers tossing it underhand or batters running the bases backwards...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

  13. #27
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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts.
    Jeriome Robertson won 15 games in 2003 for Houston with a 5.10 ERA. Somehow he's not been in the bigs since 2004 (though he did make a stop in the minors for the Reds).

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    I'm actually impressed Dusty knows as much about the minor league players as he does. He is always making references about some of them that surprise me. For some reason, I expect him to say, "Frazier? Isn't he on our high-A team or something? Yeah, I guess I've heard of him." But Dusty actually has studied these guys pretty extensively from what I can tell.

    I also took the Pettyjohn comment as a shot towards guys like Homer Bailey who have all the skill in the world but don't know how to pitch. Some guys just buck up in pressure situations and get the job done. They don't walk a ton of guys. They don't have the best stuff, but they battle and they're around the plate. They mix up their pitches well. I think this is what Dusty was trying to say. Course, with Pettyjohn's age and ERA, he's closer to Tom Shearn than Reds '09 contributor.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    So, are there actually pitchers in the majors that don't "know how to pitch", and position players that don't know how to "play the game the right way"? I don't remember too many pitchers tossing it underhand or batters running the bases backwards...
    Bad baserunning, throwing to the wrong base, mistake pitches, meltdowns on the mound, turning one error behind you into a huge inning ... but mostly they mean a showy display of scrappiness vs. the aloof demeanor of the gifted.

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    Re: Clint Hurdle: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I also took the Pettyjohn comment as a shot towards guys like Homer Bailey who have all the skill in the world but don't know how to pitch. Some guys just buck up in pressure situations and get the job done. They don't walk a ton of guys. They don't have the best stuff, but they battle and they're around the plate. They mix up their pitches well. I think this is what Dusty was trying to say.
    I think that is a terrific comment.

    Rem


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