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Thread: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

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    In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Timmy threw 138 pitches in a CG SHO for the Giants........that's right. 138.

    I am okay with pitchers throwing 100-120 pitches....although i would rather they average closer to 110 than 120. However....unless it's the last game of the WS or MAYBE you have a No-hitter going ....I do not see letting a guy throw that many pitches as being a good thing either. Especially one like Lincecum.

    Maybe a young Clemens....Schilling....Randy Johnson...but not this guy.

    What do you think of this? Think Bochy called baker for advice?

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    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    I think Bruce Bochy is a nut. Lincecum has thrown 127 and 138 pitches in his last two outs despite is team being no where near a playoff race. I was reading the Giants board last night and they were none too pleased with pushing Lincecum that hard. On August 27th he threw 132 pitches and followed that up with one of his worst starts of the season. Lincecum is a small guy (5'11" 170) too. Sending Lincecum back out there for another inning isn't going to win him the Cy Young. The Giants are just a poorly ran organization right now.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    There's no doubt, if I were a Giants fan I'd be yelling for Bochy's head.

    One difference though is that Lincecum is well known as a freak of nature. Supposedly he doesn't ice down after games and doesn't experience the same soreness as most pitchers because of his unique delivery. I don't think that changes a thing, of course, just interesting to note.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Haunted by walks
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    I wonder how many pitches were thrown in the 1920 game between Boston and Brooklyn, when Joe Oeschger and Leon Cadore each went 26 innings.

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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    I wonder how many pitches were thrown in the 1920 game between Boston and Brooklyn, when Joe Oeschger and Leon Cadore each went 26 innings.
    It truly boggles, that both of them had a complete game of 26 innings. Say 10-20 pitches per inning; it would probably be anywhere from 250 to 500 pitches for each pitcher. They really built up the arm strength in the old days.

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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cadorle01.shtml Leon was toast two years later.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/oeschjo01.shtml Joe threw 299 innings two straight years.
    Last edited by klw; 09-15-2008 at 10:32 AM.

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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Stubbs throws 138 pitches just to warm up.

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    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    I wonder how many pitches were thrown in the 1920 game between Boston and Brooklyn, when Joe Oeschger and Leon Cadore each went 26 innings.
    In a July 2, 1963 game, the Giants beat the Braves 1-0 in 16 innings.

    Both Juan Marichal (227 pitches) and Warren Spahn (201 pitches) threw complete games.


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    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    I don't think you can compare pitchers across eras like that.

    Agents should insist that pitch counts be written into a players contract,
    Go Gators!

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    Member cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    In a July 2, 1963 game, the Giants beat the Braves 1-0 in 16 innings.

    Both Juan Marichal (227 pitches) and Warren Spahn (201 pitches) threw complete games.


    I looked up in Retrosheet what each one did their next start. Spahn only pitched a complete game shutout against the Colt 45's on July 7. Marichal didn't fare as well. He went seven innings in a 5-2 loss to the Cardinals.
    IMO, every pitcher is different and should be treated as such. Some can go out and throw 150 pitches and seemingly doesn't affect them. While others need to be "babied" and limited in their pitch counts. A blanket of X number of pitches for every pitcher doesn't need to be followed. It's up to the manager to know his pitcher and how much his arm can take.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I don't think you can compare pitchers across eras like that.

    Agents should insist that pitch counts be written into a players contract,
    Pitch counts or innings pitched?

    I agree that younger pitchers should stay on a pitch count/innings count. I liked what Boston did with Buckholtz last season in shutting him down. However you are entering into a very dicey situation if you think pitch counts should be written into contracts. How do you determine if a pitcher wanted to go out there? What do you do when they playoffs come around?

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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Pitch counts are for wussies!

    Leo Mazzone will eat you for lunch and come back asking for more.

    Rem

  14. #13
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Quote Originally Posted by KronoRed View Post
    I don't think you can compare pitchers across eras like that.

    Agents should insist that pitch counts be written into a players contract,
    And I'd tell that agent to take a flying leap too. Unless they can show definitive scientific facts that pitch counts alone is abuse.

    Or maybe they should have it written into the contract and broken down that their client has to be limited as to how many fastballs, forkballs, sinkers, and breaking balls, per inning/game they can throw. :
    Last edited by GAC; 09-16-2008 at 04:57 PM.
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    Spahn and Juan also had built up their arms to take this type of workload.....and they probably threw a lot of stress free innings.

    Changed speeds more....less wear on the arm.

  16. #15
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: In a quest for the Cy Young....One Manager does not read Reds Zone...

    It looks like the high pitch counts finally caught up with Lincecum tonight. Going back to August 17th, he had pitch counts of 119, 115, and 132 in three straight starts. He followed that by having one of his worst starts of the season (five runs in five innings). After receiving an extra day of rest he come back and pitched well in his next three starts but had pitch counts of 127, 138, and 118 as Bruce Bochy rode him hard in an effort to enhance Lincecum's chances of winning the NL Cy Young. Tonight Lincecum responded by having his worst start of the season (4.1 IP, 6 runs, 5 BB/9 K). Aside from the long-term injury ramifications, working Lincecum extra hard may have cost him the Cy Young.
    I miss Adam Dunn.


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