BA's Midwest League Top 20 later today

[M2]

Q: Kyle from Middletown asks:
No Devin Mesoraco? He seemed to hold his own as a teenager and is supposed to have a great arm.

A: Jim Callis: He held his own with the bat but disappointed MWL observers with his defense. Every year in the league, there's a guy who people say surprises them that he went in the first round, and this year that guy was Mesoraco.

ouch

I was surprised he went in the first round last season.

Mind you, none of this will puncture Reds fan denial on the subject of Mesoraco.

Queue up the talking points:

"Catchers take longer to develop."
"Mesoraco's played exactly the way the Reds expected he would."
"It was only his first full season in pro ball."
"If he pans out, then it was a great pick."
"There's some incidental stat that makes him look not so bad if you stare at it while standing on your head."
"Really, he's got tools. I swear it."

[lollipopcurve]

When I hear people talk about the differences between Joey Votto and Homer Bailey, they talk about the things I just mentioned, and they reference the fact that one is an improving major leaguer and likely a future star who busts his butt every day to get better, and the other can't get out of Triple-A despite having the arm to be an all-star. I want to know where Alonso fits in those areas before I am ready to proclaim him the Reds first baseman for the next decade. We will start to find out next spring.

From all reports, Alonso is more Votto than Bailey. But, as you say, time will tell. Just curious, redsof72, but were there any players in Dayton this year who bring the same kind of drive to get better that Votto does?

[OnBaseMachine]

I was surprised he went in the first round last season.

Mind you, none of this will puncture Reds fan denial on the subject of Mesoraco.

Queue up the talking points:

"Catchers take longer to develop."
"Mesoraco's played exactly the way the Reds expected he would."
"It was only his first full season in pro ball."
"If he pans out, then it was a great pick."
"There's some incidental stat that makes him look not so bad if you stare at it while standing on your head."
"Really, he's got tools. I swear it."

If only the Reds had lost one more game in 2006...I badly wanted Jason Heyward, and supposedly the Reds liked him a lot too but the Braves would up finishing one game worse so they got the #14 pick while the Reds picked 15th. The Braves got Heyward and we were stuck with Mesoraco. I'm not giving up on Mesoraco yet but I was pretty disappointed with his season. Meanwhile, Heyward may end up being the best player in that draft along with Wieters and Price, and maybe Bumgarner.

[Kc61]

If only the Reds had lost one more game in 2006...I badly wanted Jason Heyward, and supposedly the Reds liked him a lot too but the Braves would up finishing one game worse so they got the #14 pick while the Reds picked 15th. The Braves got Heyward and we were stuck with Mesoraco. I'm not giving up on Mesoraco yet but I was pretty disappointed with his season. Meanwhile, Heyward may end up being the best player in that draft along with Wieters and Price, and maybe Bumgarner.

As a very young catcher, isn't it fair to say that Mesoraco could have been in Billings this year and that he was pushed to Dayton? And if so, shouldn't next year be the more telling year at low A?

[TRF]

this is not a crack on Stubbs, but did he play anywhere long enough to qualify for a top ten list in any league?

[M2]

As a very young catcher, isn't it fair to say that Mesoraco could have been in Billings this year and that he was pushed to Dayton? And if so, shouldn't next year be the more telling year at low A?

Except you've got to figure he'll be in High A next season.

FWIW, I'd have had him in Billings this year based on the notion that he's not going to be a fast mover anyway.

[redsof72]

There were a lot of players in Dayton with great work ethics. Hard to single one out, but Justin Reed might have had the reputation for being the hardest worker. Mesoraco is a hard worker. Cozart played through an injury all year without taking hardly a day off. Horst worked hard. Frazier had intangibles that were off the charts, more for leadership skills than anything. For the most part, that was a team of high-character guys, despite what some might have thought after the fight.

But it is not automatic. I have seen the other side. I once saw a first round catcher who showed up and announced that he was not going to catch any bullpens. You see attitude issues with first rounders far more than any other round because they are the most spoiled, most selfish, most able to get away with it in some cases. You also see issues occasionally with these guys suddenly having a lot of money to spend and not being mature enough to make good decisions.

Of the guys who have come through the system, you hear great things about Votto, Bruce, and Janish as guys that have the hearts of winners.

[OnBaseMachine]

this is not a crack on Stubbs, but did he play anywhere long enough to qualify for a top ten list in any league?

He had 303 atbats in the FSL which is more than enough to qualify. FWIW, Jay Bruce only had 268 atbats in the FSL last year when he was named the top prospect in that league. He also had just 187 atbats in Louisville last year and was named the best prospect in that league.

[lollipopcurve]

There were a lot of players in Dayton with great work ethics. Hard to single one out, but Justin Reed might have had the reputation for being the hardest worker. Mesoraco is a hard worker. Cozart played through an injury all year without taking hardly a day off. Horst worked hard. Frazier had intangibles that were off the charts, more for leadership skills than anything. For the most part, that was a team of high-character guys, despite what some might have thought after the fight.

But it is not automatic. I have seen the other side. I once saw a first round catcher who showed up and announced that he was not going to catch any bullpens. You see attitude issues with first rounders far more than any other round because they are the most spoiled, most selfish, most able to get away with it in some cases. You also see issues occasionally with these guys suddenly having a lot of money to spend and not being mature enough to make good decisions.

Of the guys who have come through the system, you hear great things about Votto, Bruce, and Janish as guys that have the hearts of winners.

Cool. Thanks -- that's very interesting stuff.

I really would love to see Janish given a shot, but I fear he's just a little short in too many areas (bat, speed, defense -- where he is good, but not great). He seems to be the type of player who would get better and better until, if he were surrounded by a good offense, he could hold down SS for a winning team. Still, there are options behind him on the horizon, so there really isn't much time left for him to get that shot....and Baker clearly prefers a couple guys who are better hitters and lesser defenders (Keppinger, Hairston) at the position, despite his pronouncements that the defense must improve.

[dougdirt]

this is not a crack on Stubbs, but did he play anywhere long enough to qualify for a top ten list in any league?

He played enough in the FSL to qualify. Doubtful anywhere else.

[Kc61]

Cool. Thanks -- that's very interesting stuff.

I really would love to see Janish given a shot, but I fear he's just a little short in too many areas (bat, speed, defense -- where he is good, but not great). He seems to be the type of player who would get better and better until, if he were surrounded by a good offense, he could hold down SS for a winning team. Still, there are options behind him on the horizon, so there really isn't much time left for him to get that shot....and Baker clearly prefers a couple guys who are better hitters and lesser defenders (Keppinger, Hairston) at the position, despite his pronouncements that the defense must improve.

Reds should never have sent Janish down earlier this year. He was just looking comfortable out there. He seemed very happy to be playing with Bruce and Votto, I thought his bat was starting to get a little better, and his excellent defense was starting to show itself.

To me, it doesn't look like they plan on Janish being with the team. Hope I'm wrong. I think he can contribute off the bench, particularly, as you say, if surrounded by a good offense.

[remdog]

I want to hear a little about his work ethic. Will he work on his weaknesses? Is he coachable? Is he truly commited to the game over and above the lifestyle that comes with it? Does he have a decent baseball IQ? Will he play hard every day? Can he handle the pressure of such high expections? Maybe he is top-notch in all these areas. I don't know yet.

When I hear people talk about the differences between Joey Votto and Homer Bailey, they talk about the things I just mentioned, and they reference the fact that one is an improving major leaguer and likely a future star who busts his butt every day to get better, and the other can't get out of Triple-A despite having the arm to be an all-star.

But you're asking if the guy can 'play the game the right way', 'knows how to win' and 'gives '110%'! That's a no-no on Redszone according to the guys here that 'know-know' baseball.

Rem

[TRF]

He had 303 atbats in the FSL which is more than enough to qualify. FWIW, Jay Bruce only had 268 atbats in the FSL last year when he was named the top prospect in that league. He also had just 187 atbats in Louisville last year and was named the best prospect in that league.

He played enough in the FSL to qualify. Doubtful anywhere else.

Thanks, I was wondering what the cutoff amount of AB's was.

[Mario-Rijo]

Except you've got to figure he'll be in High A next season.

FWIW, I'd have had him in Billings this year based on the notion that he's not going to be a fast mover anyway.

I don't get where you are coming from on this (combined with your previous post) are you down on him or on the fence?

A 20 yr old kid that you would have had at Billings holds his own offensively at a level higher than that and you are disappointed? I don't understand that. Understandably his defense needs work but how can you not be at least a bit optimistic about what he has done so far? I'm not a huge proponent of his but I would say that I am optimistic about him assuming good health. You sound as if you are convinced he was a wasted pick.

[Mario-Rijo]

I will say this, the Rockies and Reds talked about Matt Holliday. They were concrete on two names being involved. Francisco was one of those guys. There are a lot of things to love about his game. He can hit. He can hit for lots of power. He has a cannon for an arm. He just has no clue that he doesn't have to swing at every pitch thrown. I wouldn't come close to puting Francisco higher than Soto though.

Really, what else can you tell us on these Holliday happenings? For example can you say when these talks occured and who else might have been a part of the discussions, both concrete and otherwise? And by concrete do you mean they both agreed on 2 prospects? How many prospects would it have taken assuming the 2 concrete guys were a part of the deal? If you mentioned it elsewhere I must have missed it.

I realize you may not be able to get too deep into specifics but what can you tell us about those talks?