Lincecum being treated like a rented mule...

[Kingspoint]

Rotoworld's comments:

Tim Lincecum's first career complete game was a 138-pitch shutout of the Padres on Saturday.
Lincecum is an incredible pitcher. We're really hoping that's still the case in a few years, but we're becoming more skeptical every time Bruce Bochy sends him back out for that one extra inning. Does anyone really think the NL's ERA leader needs a confidence boost at this point? Why on earth send him back out to pitch the ninth in a 7-0 game when he's already thrown 118 pitches? He just threw 127 pitches on Monday. He had an 132-pitch outing on Aug. 27 (and followed it up with one of his worst starts of the year). Lincecum gave up two hits in the ninth tonight, bringing the Padres' total for the night up to four. He ended up striking out 12. It was an outstanding performance. However, it wouldn't have been any less impressive had he left after eight.

[highheat11]

Rotoworld's comments:

Tim Lincecum's first career complete game was a 138-pitch shutout of the Padres on Saturday.
Lincecum is an incredible pitcher. We're really hoping that's still the case in a few years, but we're becoming more skeptical every time Bruce Bochy sends him back out for that one extra inning. Does anyone really think the NL's ERA leader needs a confidence boost at this point? Why on earth send him back out to pitch the ninth in a 7-0 game when he's already thrown 118 pitches? He just threw 127 pitches on Monday. He had an 132-pitch outing on Aug. 27 (and followed it up with one of his worst starts of the year). Lincecum gave up two hits in the ninth tonight, bringing the Padres' total for the night up to four. He ended up striking out 12. It was an outstanding performance. However, it wouldn't have been any less impressive had he left after eight.

I thought Dusty was in Cincy...

[Orenda]

Another perfect example of the existing moronic attitudes in baseball. It's amazing to me that some of these old school ideas continue to be prevalent despite evidence that proves their "rubberarm" theories incorrect.

[757690]

I think that the whole pitch count obsession is probably causing more arm injuries than preventing them, and I think the 100 as a magic number for pitch counts is based more on it being a round number than any evidence.

Still I think everyone understands that three consecutive games of 125+ pitches for a 24 year old is bad, very, very bad.

[REDblooded]

Harang is responding admirably to years of overruse.

[jimbo]

He is in contention for a Cy Young.

[redsbuckeye]

Lincecum’s current situation is rather disturbing, especially for a guy many say has a stressful arm motion. He leads the league in PAP this year and was 24 entering the 2008 season.

Top 3 PAP leaders 25 or younger since 1998:

1998
1. Livan Hernandez - PAP 908667 - Livan was 23 in ‘98 and has avoided major injury for a long while. Would be solid over the next few years but was abused again and again and never really recovered after his time with Washington. While he held up well during those years, by the time he was 31 he was essentially broken.

2. Jason Schmidt - PAP 244615 - Schmidt is the poster boy of pitcher abuse related injuries. He was 25 in 1998 and while 1999 was injury free, he would spend the remaining years of his career with numerous trips to the DL, although he pitched well while not injured. Schmidt pitched hardly at all last year and has yet to pitch this year.

3. Bartolo Colon - PAP 225210 - The '98 and '99 seasons would portend several nagging injuries that would limit his time played over the years. He was 25 in '98.

1999
1. Livan Hernandez – PAP 410643 – See above.

2. Russ Ortiz – PAP 404389 – 25 in ’99, Russ would manage to avoid major injury for a while, seemingly breaking the odds. However, he hasn’t pitched more than 200 innings since 2004.

3. Freddy Garcia – PAP 264992 – Freddy was 23 in ’99 and seemingly a star in the making, but would only manage 124 innings in 2000. Seattle wisely used him in 2001 where his PAP was a relatively miniscule 80039 and he has since pitched consistently.

2000
1. Livan Hernandez – PAP 417117 – See above.

2. Randy Wolf – PAP 210366 – Wolf was 23 in 2000 and spent a good deal of time injured in 2001. He’d be ok in 2002 and 2003 but has since been unable to pitch for any extended amount of time.

3. Scott Elarton – PAP 190153 – 25 in 2000, Elarton has never really gotten off the ground due to being a primarily bad pitcher.

2001
1. Ryan Dempster – PAP 130224 – Had a similar number in 2000. Would also pitch a lot in 2002 and had to be converted to a reliever in 2003. Time off of starting would perhaps help as he’s bounced back quite well this year.

2. Chad Durbin – PAP 115151 – Durbin’s lack of success is more likely to be because he’s a bad pitcher. He’s been an on and off again starter since 2001 and spent a lot of time in the minors.

3. Jeff Weaver – PAP 113144 – Weaver was 24 in 2001 and would receive a lot of abuse over the next 5 years, breaking down in 2006. His performance has also left a lot wanting.

[redsbuckeye]

2002
1. AJ Burnett – PAP 209420 – Burnett’s career has been fraught with injury since 2002 when he was 25.

2. Jeff Weaver – PAP 110555 – See above.

3. Randy Wolf – PAP 89432 – See above. This isn’t that bad of a number but a number of years in a row and it begins to have an effect.

2003
1. Mark Prior – PAP 220295 – I don’t think I need to say much. He was 22.

2. Joel Piniero – PAP 105843 – Joel was 24 in 2003 and looked to be on the rise. But he’d never be the same player after 2003. Even a relief conversion hasn’t really saved him.

3. Carlos Zambrano – PAP 104226 – 22, luckily for him, the constant abuse over the past 5 years hasn’t hurt him at all.

Worth noting, Kerry Wood was 26 this year and had a PAP of 259422. Like Prior, his situation is well documented.

2004
1. Carlos Zambrano – PAP 158715 – Still pitching well, hasn’t been affected.

2. Ben Sheets – PAP 87048 – 25 in 2004 and even though this isn’t that high of a PAP, he’s still spent a fair amount of time on the DL in the following years.

3. Mark Buehrle – PAP 68814 – 25 in 2004. This number is low enough to not have much of an effect. Chicago has also reigned him in the following years, preserving a very good pitcher’s arm.

2005
1. Carlos Zambrano – PAP 161247 – Yup, still fine.

2. Mark Prior – PAP 102881 – Prior is going downhill fast.

3. Noah Lowrey – PAP 72595 – He was 24 in 2005 and the intervening years are not looking good for him, even considering the relatively low PAP number. Me must have a glass arm.

2006
1. Carlos Zambrano – PAP 134813 – Carlos is the true exception to the rule, apparently. He was 25 in 2006 so he won’t be appearing anymore.

2. Dontrelle Willis – PAP 108873 – Pitched well in 2006 but 2007 was a disappointment. 2008 has been an abject failure.

3. Matt Cain – PAP 90233 – Cain has been fine so far.

2007 – At this point it may be hard to draw any conclusions for younger players, but it will be worth noting the leaders for future discussion.
1. Matt Cain – PAP 60331 – Fairly low number, probably hasn’t hurt himself too much without breaking 100k PAP in a year yet.

2. Tom Gorzelanny – PAP 52073 – Even with this low number he’s been sent to the minors this year after a promising two preceding years. May be injury related, unable to determine for sure.

3. No other pitcher even broke 50k PAP. Perhaps managers are realizing the value of the teams’ investment, especially in the younger players. Risk just isn’t worth the reward if your name isn’t Zambrano.

2008 – Just for gits and shiggles.
1. Tim Lincecum – PAP 168676 so far – This really doesn’t bode well for Lincecum. In the next 2-4 years we will learn whether his arm can hold up to the abuse he’s received in just one year.

2. Matt Cain – PAP 68084 so far – San Francisco might want to consider reigning in their pitchers in a year where the players won’t be going anywhere in October other than an off-season house.

3. John Lester – PAP 51248 so far.

[Jr's Boy]

Lincecum’s current situation is rather disturbing, especially for a guy many say has a stressful arm motion.


Who says that?If anything I believe he has a more fluid motion.He's loose with his windup and delivery,just a joy to watch him throw.

[redsbuckeye]

Lincecum’s current situation is rather disturbing, especially for a guy many say has a stressful arm motion.


Who says that?If anything I believe he has a more fluid motion.He's loose with his windup and delivery,just a joy to watch him throw.

I've seen speculation here and there about arm stress and calling it an awkward motion on a few differing sports talk boards.

That's not the primary point, however.

[Jr's Boy]

Pitch count?!!Attachment 5377

[levydl]

Lincecum’s current situation is rather disturbing, especially for a guy many say has a stressful arm motion.


Who says that?If anything I believe he has a more fluid motion.He's loose with his windup and delivery,just a joy to watch him throw.

So true. He really is amazing.

I haven't been to a game in a couple of months, but when the Giants were coming to town a few weeks back I looked at the projected starters to see if Lincecum was pitching. Too bad, we missed him by a day. I would have paid up for some good seats to watch him throw.

[mole44]

I'm sure we didn't draft that bum, we need more guys like Drew Patterson anyways.

[Kingspoint]

Larry Dobrow of CBS Sports' take:

Bruce Bochy deserves a punch in the gizzard and a citation for criminal negligence for having kept Tim Lincecum in the game for 138 pitches on Saturday night. Sure, you'd like to get your guy the Cy Young, but not at the cost of his long-term welfare. ...

[Jr's Boy]

Pitch count?!!Attachment 5377

138 ip?Thats a drop in the bucket to Earl Weaver's rotation.