When does it all get easier?

[Tom Servo]

I'd just like to say I genuinely appreciate each and everyone who took the time to read and reply to my topic. It means a lot to me.


Now to shed a little more light on my situation:

As far as sending a friend to do my work, I definatly learned a lesson about that. It just kills me knowing that it was all coincidence. Jeff convinced me to send him because he was afraid I didn't have the balls to do it that day like I wanted to, and of course Alyssa just happened to be smitten with him and decided to use the oppurtunity to tell him. But whatever, no more of that ever again.

In regards to what Steel was saying about love it or leave it, I've tried twice before to tell her my feelings with two different results. The first time was right after Jeff went to her and she told me "I'm sorry, I don't know. I'm not ready". So I took that as I have a chance and still just wanted to be good friends. Then when all of this came out last month I got the dreaded "You're an awesome guy, I really like you...as a friend". And I tried to cut ties with her at the end of the conversation, saying maybe we could talk but not particularly soon. And I made a joke that she took as me saying I wouldn't talk to her for four years and she started to cry. So I got suckered back in...

In regards to my intentions of speaking with Alyssa, that's what I myself am trying to figure out. Like bucksfan said, I'm not really sure that I can ever fully trust her again, so I really don't know what it is I want. Part of me probably still wants to convince her I'm boyfriend material, but I would be the first to admit that by doing that I'm just opening myself up for more pain when things stay the same. What still shocks me about all of this is that she is probably the nicest girl you'd ever meet, everyone who knows her loves her. But she said herself that she was selfish and I guess I learned a lesson about people.

It's not especially important, but what makes Jeff all the more disliked by me is that all along the plan was for him to live in an apartment with his girlfriend in Florida. And he is. And even when they were living together at the beginning of this summer he continued to tell Alyssa (who thought it would end when he moved) how much he loved and missed her. So he really screwed up his poor girlfriend's life as well. But she has apparently decided to stay with him, to which I say good luck with that. And I forget to mention the Redszone connection. Jeff's girlfriend is Dave Miley's neice. And when Dave's son died and his girlfriend went to her cousin's funeral, Jeff used the oppurtunity to speak to Alyssa who was shocked he could be so callous. Classy guy, my best friend is.

I very much take it to heart what bucksfan, redsmetz, paintmered, and Mario have said to me. It makes me feel better knowing others have gone through similar situations and can now speak of it as it is, the past.

I should note I wasn't trying to get on my high horse or anything about the college stereotypes. All of those things are fine in moderation, it's just that in my personal experience with people around them they lead to trouble.

And to everyone who had suggestions relating to college, I plan on listening. I really do want to put myself out there and will definatly be looking at more orginizations. I knew I would have to let go of high school but I never expected things to take such a sharp turn. But I can't let that detour me. I plan on making the best of what I have and finding what makes me happy.

[paintmered]

Let me confirm what Paint says here. When I had those Reds/Cubs tickets available, she was ready and willing to step into the crucible of The Invasion of the Cubs fans to witness first hand whether they're jerks or not. And we beat the blue socks off them at the game. Paint is a lucky man, to say the least.

After the game, she said to me, "okay, now I understand why you feel the way you do towards Cubs' fans."

[Dom Heffner]

Tom, beofre I get to the advice (tough to add to what has been said here) I have one thing.

I think Steel had a great post. Always good stuff from him. Just don't, whatever you do, pull out a deck of Magic cards on a date. Steel has powers from beyond that allow him to have a successful love life while still doing things that would sound off the nerd alert if lesser men like me and you tried it.

So you're friend pulled a Pacey on you. Ouch. I had that happen to me twenty plus years ago or so (Footloose was out at the time to give you a more precise idea of how long ago we are talking).

Mine was a slightly different situation than yours- I was dating a girl and my best friend just started dating her, mid-stream, so to speak. There were no phone calls to let me know, either. They just one day were dating.

I was a mess for awhile, literally.

I think the older me would go back and tell the young me to lose people like Alyssa and your "friend" in a heart beat for a number of reasons, none more important than they aren't your friends. I stayed around a little while longer than I should have, I think. I don't want to see you do that. Accident scenes are best left in the past.

What should bother you is this: They are each going to date numerous people in their lives and they have to get together with each other after you send one to tell the other that you have feelings for them?

Your friends had a split second to make a choice and they chose the other way. Too bad for them.

Because what's going to happen to them is the same thing that happened to me at my 20 year high school reunion when I ran into the two I told you about.

I walked right up to the guy, shook his hand and said, "Hey, Brian, it's Alan."

He started in on an apology that would have lasted the entire night had I not, in a polite if not condescending way, cut him off. I let him know about the wonderful life I have lived since high school and then ended the conversation and walked away.

Same thing happened with the girl.

And it made me realize this: I got the better end of the deal by far.

I lost two people who didn't care about me and who got to carry around guilt for twenty years, while I couldn't muster an ounce of care over that situation if I tried by month two.

I sometimes think the ones who get left fare better than the ones who leave.

It will hurt for awhile and then it won't. Let it, it's part of the process. Read the lyrics to "Unanswered Prayers," get down in the dumps, listen to Pearl Jam's "Black" - whatever you need to do to get over it.

And then I would hop right back on the horse, this time with you in control. Work out. Keep the grades high. Set goals and achieve them. Fill that life right up with stuff and meeting people will happen naturally. Single people have a wonderful opportunity and never realize it until it's gone. You can sit there, on a Friday night, and ask yourself, if I could be doing anything in the world right now, what would it be? And then you can actually go do it without asking permission, without hurting someone's feelings, without any strings at all. Maybe it's watching planes land at the airport, maybe it's asking that cute girl out from your macroeconomics class. And if she says no, then it's the girl from the smoothie place. Or the library. Or the dorm. Life is a law of large numbers game, my friend. Nobody deducts points from you if you get turned down, but your value definitely goes up with each yes, so start asking.

In the blink of an eye, you'll be the person you want to be, with the job you want, the lady you want, kids, house, dogs, cats, and these foolish two "friends" are going to be a memory so distant that you'll wonder why you cared in the first place.

But it never will happen if you don't get busy making it so.

My uncle used to say, "You're never lost as long as you have a mouth."

So my advice to you would be this: Go heal.

And then go open that mouth. Let the world know what it is you want and it will come to you.

Sorry for the length, guys. Slow day at the office lol....

[M2]

Tom, sounds like she is a nice girl and that she's young. When you get older you realize that you're not going to be friends with somebody if one of you desperately wants to be more than friends. It just doesn't work. In that case you've either got to move on to dating or be casual acquaintances.

She clearly wanted to keep you around because she likes you as a friend, but that, for whatever reason, you didn't trip her dating impulses (and when you're a teenager the yes/no dating impulse is pretty much instant). All of this stuff is relatively new to her too, so I don't see any reason to give her a piece of your mind. Sounds like she means well even if she hasn't done well by you.

Girls often want to be around guys and have it be safe. It's one of the reasons so many females have close gay male friends. There's no pressure and I can see where teenage girls in particular would want that. On the flipside, guys your age are desperately trying to figure out how to talk to girls and be unsafe. You understandably don't want the neutering designation of "just a friend." In time people (mostly) figure out how to work around that. Women figure out that their male friends aren't castrati and men figure out how to balance being the dangerous guy to some women with being the safe friend to others.

As for right now, you don't have to keep beating your head against that wall. Be polite, but keep your distance, which I assume is no problem now that you're away at college. Don't call her and make sure to check your caller ID before you answer the phone. Aside from everything else, you're in a new place now and a lot of freshman make the mistake of clinging to what and who they know back home rather than going out and tackling their new environs. Even if you're ready to make that leap, you don't want to be on the phone constantly with someone from high school who isn't (unrequited love interest or not).

[Dom Heffner]

As far as sending a friend to do my work, I definatly learned a lesson about that. It just kills me knowing that it was all coincidence. Jeff convinced me to send him because he was afraid I didn't have the balls to do it that day like I wanted to, and of course Alyssa just happened to be smitten with him and decided to use the oppurtunity to tell him. But whatever, no more of that ever again.

I'll go away already in a second.

Look- sending the friend was a mistake, but I think the end result wasn't going to be favorable for you no matter what you did.

Two things going on here at once, though. One- I would rid myself of both of them.

A friend doesn't date the guy who was sent to share your feelings for her.

And a friend doesn't use the opportunity to swoop in on a girl that his friend likes.

Those aren't friends. Those are people who care more about their own feelings than yours.

The other issue is whether she is into you or not. If she is saying things like "I'm not ready," or "I need time," or "I like you as a friend," she is meaning "No."

And to add then- what kind of friend can't be straight with you?

Lose 'em.

You're never as attractive as when you walk away (she cried when you did the last time, eh?) and mean it.

[Michael Young]

seriously tom, the best thing you can do. don't talk to her for a week or two... then, answer one of her calls and be really really nice to her. casually mention that you've met someone on campus and you two are dating. this girl is obviously used to you talking to her with those puppy dog eyes. this girl is used to having the upper hand. time to turn the tables. youre out there, you're dating and you are having the time of your life

[M2]

seriously tom, the best thing you can do. don't talk to her for a week or two... then, answer one of her calls and be really really nice to her. casually mention that you've met someone on campus and you two are dating. this girl is obviously used to you talking to her with those puppy dog eyes. this girl is used to having the upper hand. time to turn the tables. youre out there, you're dating and you are having the time of your life

I'd stop after the first sentence (and I'd probably see if you could stretch out the radio silence for a month). Do NOT tell her you're dating someone if that's not the case or put up a false front. That's way more effort than you need to put into a conversation with her. Mind you, endeavor to have a good time regardless of what conversation you may have with her in the future. The point isn't to make her feel bad, it's for you to be doing things that make you feel good (not pretending that you're doing things that make you feel good).

[SteelSD]

Just don't, whatever you do, pull out a deck of Magic cards on a date. Steel has powers from beyond that allow him to have a successful love life while still doing things that would sound off the nerd alert if lesser men like me and you tried it.

When you know that your future wife used to play D&D with her older brother and his friends, pulling out a deck of Magic cards is a lot less risky.

I'd just like to say I genuinely appreciate each and everyone who took the time to read and reply to my topic. It means a lot to me.

Happy to do it, Tom. In my experience, the best way to learn is by making mistakes and the second best way to learn is by hearing about the mistakes made by others.

In regards to what Steel was saying about love it or leave it, I've tried twice before to tell her my feelings with two different results. The first time was right after Jeff went to her and she told me "I'm sorry, I don't know. I'm not ready".

Well, that's in the distant past and we know know that her words translated to, "I'm sorry, but I'm interested in pursuing a relationship with Jeff."

So I took that as I have a chance and still just wanted to be good friends.

While the following may sound a bit harsh, please understand that my intent is only to bring the truth to the surface. By doing that, we can understand our own motivations; which helps us stop fooling ourselves.

You DID NOT still just want to be good friends. You wanted an intimate relationship with a girl with whom you were fascinated. Did Alyssa screw things up? Not necessarily. Did Jeff screw things up? Not necessarily. Did YOU screw things up. Yes, and then later, not necessarily.

Steel's Dating Rule #3: The Intimacy Window

Now, I'm not sure how long you knew Alyssa prior to finally making your feelings known, but I am convinced (and I've seen this in action) that there is a statute of limitations on a single girl's interest in intimacy with a desirable male (doesn't matter if he's actually available, BTW). If a guy senses interest or has notions about wanting to have a romantic relationship with a girl, he needs to act quickly. How quickly? That might be different for each girl, but I'd estimate that it's well under 90 days. Going past that threshold is the kiss of death, especially if you fit the "nice guy" profile (and it appears you might).

Tom, a young guy who fits your profile needs to be at least as aggressive as the jerks in the room because girls you'll meet (almost without exception) have issues with self-esteem. Yes, it's true. The girls you're likely to target all have self-esteem issues and you need to remember that while you haven't seen them naked, they have (that's important). What you think about yourself has nothing to do with them and it has everything to do with you. That's a lesson I learned in the long-ago time of college. How you carry yourself and your sense of humor (which you have in abundance) is far FAR more important than you think.

Forget the above and you risk waiting to the point where your "boyfriend" window of opportunity closes because the girls you'll be meeting will be looking for acceptance and self-validation. You can give them both, but only if you're willing to put yourself out there as an actual romantic prospect soon after you connect with them. Wait too long and you enter into "friend" zone. Why? Because the girl has now determined that you can satisfy their emotional need for acceptance but that you might not have enough interest in satisfying their body ideal (told you that was important). That leads to...

Steel's Dating Rule #4: The "Friend Zone" Isn't Always a Bad Place to Be

This rule is always about "taken" girls or girls with whom you've missed your window of opportunity. It's manipulative as all get out and may involve aligning yourself with a male "friend" (even if he's a jerk) who has a desirable girlfriend. Basically, it's about social networking.

Step 1: Find an attractive girl you get along with who's either taken or who's placed you into the "Friend Zone". These girls run in packs. If the "taken" girl is the girlfriend of a friend of yours, all the better. If your "friend" is a jerk, that can also work to your advantage because you're the "nice guy". But you need to make sure that you're willing to turn on your chosen guy "friend" if he's a jerk in order to maintain your own credibility.

Step 2: At every opportunity, mirror your "friend's" aggressive behavior with the group but resist anything that would paint you as a jerk. If your "friend" insults anyone or does something stupid, apologize for his behavior. If he's not a jerk, you've gained mondo rep points from the girlfriend's entourage. If he is a jerk, you've gained mondo rep points from the girlfriend's entourage. It's basically a no-lose situation.

Step 3: If your "friend" actually is a jerk, target the girl who is most put-back by his behavior. After all, you're the "nice guy" who is also fun enough and confident enough to hang out with the crowd.

Step 4: If your "friend" is actually a jerk, leave behind any feeling of loyalty to him if he actually does something that conflicts with your moral code. It's a dog-eat-dog world and you need to remember that a jerk isn't going to be looking out for you in the first place. In fact, the reason you're there is likely to add credibility to him in the first place. He's looking to use you, but you can use him if you've continued to be outgoing and credible.

Step 5: If you get to this step, you're probably able to date just about any girl who's heard your name or who's seen you hanging out with that crowd. Trust me. You have NO idea how many rep points you get from being aligned with a really desirable guy and then turning on him when he proves that his character is undesirable. Let me tell you a story...

I moved to a new college many moons ago. Through social networking, I came across a guy (we'll call him "Mark"). Mark was a really good-looking cheerleader who knew a ton of incredibly attractive women. Mark was a complete jerk who thought way too much of himself and who'd run a male "friend" over with a bus if he thought it would serve his needs. But Mark was also a guy who behaved so badly that he needed a decent-looking (I'm not at all Brad Pitt) wingman to create credibility. So I played along.

I met an incredible number of really attractive girls through hanging with Mark. But I knew his rep and so did they. So unless he did something completely off the charts, I'd back him. Because I was the "nice guy". And frankly, hanging out with Mark allowed me to get to the point where I was aggressive as all get out with women. My association with him allowed me to build his rep (because I was a "nice guy") and also allowed me to build my prospects.

Then Mark did something entirely below-board. He dumped a girl he was dating through me, which allowed me to pick up the pieces and gained me much respect from the entire female establishment. Swimming in that world was easy prior to that, but because I demonstrated that I was a trustworthy stand-up guy after, the entire female contingent opened up to me. There wasn't a single girl in that town who wouldn't go out with me and all because I'd held to my standards. Well, that and the fact that I'd played the game perfectly.

Dude, I had five girls calling me per day. And all because I'd welcomed the "Friend Zone" with one girl who couldn't possibly be more. Think about it.

Then when all of this came out last month I got the dreaded "You're an awesome guy, I really like you...as a friend". And I tried to cut ties with her at the end of the conversation, saying maybe we could talk but not particularly soon. And I made a joke that she took as me saying I wouldn't talk to her for four years and she started to cry. So I got suckered back in...

Steel's Dating Rule #1: Look Out for Yourself

Seriously, she didn't sucker you back in. You did. Was she crying because she cared about you or because she cared about herself? Let's get real here. The girl was crying because she feels badly about the fact that you might not be there to give her the emotional validation she needs. Yet, she's never given you the emotional of physical validation you need. At this point, you need to let her know that you have absolutely no interest in speaking with her unless there's an imminent physical relationship. And you need to hold to it. Here's another story about a girl who actually did give me physical validation:

Prior to meeting my wife, I was very interested in a girl who was about the same age as my wife when I met her. We actually did have an intimate physical relationship prior to the following conversation, which played out in my apartment:

Her: "I'm not sure I'm ready for a relationship. There are a lot of other guys out there I could date."

Me: "I understand. But there's no way I'm going to sleep with you while you're dating other guys."

<Steel gets her off the couch and shows her the door>

Her: "Well, if you were interested in me, I don't understand why you wouldn't fight for me."

Me: "I have fought for you, but I'm not at all intersted in sharing you with other guys. Have a nice life."

Best decision I ever made. There's no possible way I could trust that girl after her disclosure about the nature of our relationship and considering the potential health risks of her putting herself on the market, she was a "DO NOT WANT". In short, sometimes you have to cut the cord right away in order to stay happy. At that point, I had absolutely no interest in a girl who'd initiated a physical relationship with me and then who wanted to play the field.

Way WAY too many girls out there. The rest of my dating rules? Well, those are available upon request.

[Mario-Rijo]

Good god Steel you kill me.

Seriously though Tom Steel's right on the money, I mean right on it. We should call him PimpSD. BTW I have done the cut her loose right now move and meant it wholeheartedly and of course....let's just say (since this is a family board) there are fringe benefits for such actions, assuming you are interested in them. Unless like Steel said they wanna play the field. But there is nothing more appealing to a woman than something she knows she cannot have.

Anyhow I'm glad we have this board for stuff like this, just think you have so many people here who truly have only your best interest at heart, that's an awesome thing to know you have backing you up. And it certainly is fun to get away from arguing about baseball and getting into something else so very fascinating and not stale at all.

BTW where's VP and Kitty, shouldn't we get a womans perspective on all of this stuff PimpSD is saying?

P.S. Happy Hunting Tom!

[Chip R]

BTW where's VP and Kitty, shouldn't we get a womans perspective on all of this stuff PimpSD is saying?

It must be good advice or else they would weigh in and tell us we're full of crap.

Alyssa sounds like a great girl but I think you need to step back for your own good. Instead of talking to her as much as you do, gradually pare back. If you talk to her several times a week, cut it back to once a week. Then once every couple of weeks. Then once a month. Then just a few times a year. I don't know what your "talking" consists of but try to make it non-verbal. E-mails and texts instead of in-person conversations and phone calls. But even that should happen less frequently. As tough as it is, you've got to move on without her. Sandy, et. al. had good advice. Join clubs, intramurals, whatever. You never know when Ms Right is going to come along. Pretty soon, you'll be so busy you won't be thinking of Alyssa. I'd think Alyssa's going to want to know why you two don't talk as much as you used to but you just tell her with school and other stuff you've been too busy to talk.

Look at my previous post in here. I posted a link to a thread the great and powerful Raisor started about a girl he was fond of. He ended up getting married to a friend of hers.

[Ltlabner]

There's a world of difference between being a nice guy but still confident and assertive and being a nice guy who's got puppydog eyes and is willing to trade dignity for a chance at romance.

Most women, generally speaking, don't like guys who aren't assertive and confident on some level. The ones who aren't, or who's puppy-dog eyes are there for the world to see, end up in the "friend zone". Quickly.

[AmarilloRed]

I can definitely identify with this thread. I ran into some job troubles lately. I had my front-end manager red-line my schedule, because it was totally different from what I had been working. Two weekend day shifts to 2 weekend closing shifts. It turned out there was no one else who was expected to close, and I got into a bit of trouble. I think my Wal-Mart career is coming to an end. Eight dollars an hours is not worth this sort of trouble.

[camisadelgolf]

If you never meet Mrs. Right, you could regret not pursuing her for the rest of your life. My recommendation is to go after if you can't think of a very good reason she couldn't make you happy for the rest of your life. If you decide to pursue her, just make sure you don't half-ass it because you'd just regret that, too. Regret is one of the worst feelings a person can have, and I just recommend trying to avoid it at pretty much whatever cost. Personally, I know I'd rather regret something I did than something I didn't do.

[bucksfan]

...In regards to my intentions of speaking with Alyssa, that's what I myself am trying to figure out. Like bucksfan said, I'm not really sure that I can ever fully trust her again, ....

I believe I am being credited for advice I did not give but I have actually been reading through this since the initial posting.

I certainly do not have the background to give the level of advice Steel offers as I have been lucky enough to not have had to truly "play the game" - or perhaps I really wasn't aware of the existence of a "game to be played", so to speak - I just reacted to the situations with my heart and head in varying degrees of balance, not really trying to ever anticipate how others would react other than to follow the general guideline of treating people with respect and honesty unless their actions clearly merit otherwise.

My background is that I was simply in one long-term relationship that was "not right" - nothing horribly wrong, just not right. As I got older and knew what I wanted (or at least didn't want), I eventually saw that for myself after about 2 years of friends telling me the same thing. I met my wife (of 15 years) within months after that and it certainly has been a "happily ever after..." situation from that point onwards. Everyone's story is different for sure and only you know best how to apply the various pieces of helpful information in this thread to your own situation.

I agree with the many who have said to take your time in college to truly get to know yourself and others. Be outgoing, honest, friendly, and yourself.

[Hap]

Are there any girls you might happen to meet in the dorms that might happen to be going through something similar with their high-school exes and who might happen to also be going through loneliness and pain and who also might happen to be looking for a chance to (ahem, ahem, hint, hint) get some healing from someone who just might happen to be there (ahem, ahem, hint, hint) in the flesh?