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Thread: Russell Martin could be available??

  1. #46
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I think your number 4 hitter kind of sums up where the runs will come from with that lineup....
    I know from the emoticon you are being a bit sarcastic (I think) so how do you really feel about that lineup? Assuming of course we can get a solid RH bat that is better than either EE or BP to hit between Votto & Bruce.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  3. #47
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM View Post
    Shortstops bat second.
    Yeah I know, that's why I would much rather get a SS who can hit there. But I sorta expect Gonzo to remain (or be gone completely) and even Dusty knows better than to stick Gonzo up there if we have clearly better options (maybe).
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    I know from the emoticon you are being a bit sarcastic (I think) so how do you really feel about that lineup? Assuming of course we can get a solid RH bat that is better than either EE or BP to hit between Votto & Bruce.
    I'm not that plussed about it but it depends upon who the ??? is I guess.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Yeah I know, that's why I would much rather get a SS who can hit there. But I sorta expect Gonzo to remain (or be gone completely) and even Dusty knows better than to stick Gonzo up there if we have clearly better options (maybe).
    I hear you but I certainly wouldn't say Dusty knows better. The guy did give Corey Patterson 150 plate appearances in the leadoff spot. He also gave 346 plate appearances to Keppinger in the 2 hole. Kepp had a .662 OPS batting second by the way.

  6. #50
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    I know from the emoticon you are being a bit sarcastic (I think) so how do you really feel about that lineup? Assuming of course we can get a solid RH bat that is better than either EE or BP to hit between Votto & Bruce.
    The question is, how do you get Martin and ?(Holliday)? without gutting the team somewhere else. Clearly, the answer to the problem is a net increase in talent at the major league level. There are three ways to do that:

    1. Sign a FA
    2. Make a trade in which you get more major league talent than you give up
    3. Add from your minor league system

    We can muse all day about a dream lineup with 2 new all-stars and pretend like everything else stays the same. But absent a massive binge in FA, that's not going to happen. To improve at the major league level via trades, we're going to have to trade away buckets of minor leaguers or rip somebody off. Because merely shifting the value isn't going to get it done. And there aren't too many teams willing to trade away stars for buckets of prospects. The A's are the exception to that rule.

    Dickerson
    Martin
    Votto
    Holliday
    EE
    Bruce
    Phillips
    Gonzalez

    That's a really solid lineup. But it's an utter pipe dream.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    The question is, how do you get Martin and ?(Holliday)? without gutting the team somewhere else. Clearly, the answer to the problem is a net increase in talent at the major league level. There are three ways to do that:

    1. Sign a FA
    2. Make a trade in which you get more major league talent than you give up
    3. Add from your minor league system

    We can muse all day about a dream lineup with 2 new all-stars and pretend like everything else stays the same. But absent a massive binge in FA, that's not going to happen. To improve at the major league level via trades, we're going to have to trade away buckets of minor leaguers or rip somebody off. Because merely shifting the value isn't going to get it done. And there aren't too many teams willing to trade away stars for buckets of prospects. The A's are the exception to that rule.

    Dickerson
    Martin
    Votto
    Holliday
    EE
    Bruce
    Phillips
    Gonzalez

    That's a really solid lineup. But it's an utter pipe dream.
    Yep. That's pretty much the sedate, sepulchral, serious, shadowy, shady, sober, solemn, somber, sorry, sourpuss, staid, sucky situation.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    The more I think about it the more Martin makes sense for us. Obviously he would for anyone but even moreso us. If we stick a big bat in LF and Gonzo stays (which at this point is more likely than not) we don't have an ideal #2 hitter or anyone remotely close other than maybe Votto. This is assuming of course worst case scenario Dickerson/Hairston play CF. Martin would be an excellent #2 hitter behind those guys and ahead of Votto and say a Holliday type.

    Dickerson/Hairston CF
    Martin C
    Votto 1B
    ???
    Bruce RF
    EE 3B
    BP 2B
    Gonzo SS

    That makes us a pretty solid lineup with power all around, discipline in more spots than not and no real slowpokes either. But I just can't see them trading Martin and if they do people will be out in force with top prospects for a top of the line catcher. I guess I might as well forget this pipe dream.
    Respect bats 3rd

    I'm not sure The Dusty respects our Canadian... or for that matter, if our Canadian has earned the 3rd spot, yet.

  9. #53
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    RedsManRick, excellent post.

  10. #54
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    The question is, how do you get Martin and ?(Holliday)? without gutting the team somewhere else. Clearly, the answer to the problem is a net increase in talent at the major league level. There are three ways to do that:

    1. Sign a FA
    2. Make a trade in which you get more major league talent than you give up
    3. Add from your minor league system

    We can muse all day about a dream lineup with 2 new all-stars and pretend like everything else stays the same. But absent a massive binge in FA, that's not going to happen. To improve at the major league level via trades, we're going to have to trade away buckets of minor leaguers or rip somebody off. Because merely shifting the value isn't going to get it done. And there aren't too many teams willing to trade away stars for buckets of prospects. The A's are the exception to that rule.

    Dickerson
    Martin
    Votto
    Holliday
    EE
    Bruce
    Phillips
    Gonzalez

    That's a really solid lineup. But it's an utter pipe dream.
    Well I may have dreamed of Holliday, but that's far from stating that I would target he and Martin, I know better than that. But If you acquire Martin with good prospects and then either sign a solid FA or the more impactful scenario would be to target a team with a big bat that fits the mold who want to dump salary. If we take on big salary by proxy that means we aren't trading more top prospects or at least I wouldn't.

    Ordonez
    Beltre
    Dye
    Rivera
    Blake

    These guys come to mind as examples of solid potentially ava. bats, some obviously more than others. There is probably more out there worth pursuing if we just do due diligence.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  11. #55
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Well I may have dreamed of Holliday, but that's far from stating that I would target he and Martin, I know better than that. But If you acquire Martin with good prospects and then either sign a solid FA or the more impactful scenario would be to target a team with a big bat that fits the mold who want to dump salary. If we take on big salary by proxy that means we aren't trading more top prospects or at least I wouldn't.

    Ordonez
    Beltre
    Dye
    Rivera
    Blake

    These guys come to mind as examples of solid potentially ava. bats, some obviously more than others. There is probably more out there worth pursuing if we just do due diligence.
    So what you are saying is a lineup of...

    Dickerson
    Martin
    Votto
    Dye/Ordonez
    Bruce
    EE
    Phillips
    Gonzalez

    isn't out of the question

  12. #56
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    So what you are saying is a lineup of...

    Dickerson
    Martin
    Votto
    Dye/Ordonez
    Bruce
    EE
    Phillips
    Gonzalez

    isn't out of the question
    I don't think so, probably Ordonez more than Dye because the Sox would likely prefer to deal Konerko. How is Detroit gonna expect top prospects and for a team to take on 18 million in '09 plus at minimum another 3 Mill in a '10 buyout? Assuming they do indeed wanna cut payroll as has been rumored/reported.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Regarding Martin specifically, when was the last time a big market team traded away an all-star caliber player for nothing but prospects? Teams like the Twins, Marlins, and A's do it because it's the only way they can accrue enough talent. They also don't have a fanbase which feels entitled. But when you talk about LA, I'd be absoltuely floored if they traded away Martin without getting at least a major leaguer comparable to EE and with prospects on top of that. Big market teams just don't do stars for prospects.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  14. #58
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Regarding Martin specifically, when was the last time a big market team traded away an all-star caliber player for nothing but prospects? Teams like the Twins, Marlins, and A's do it because it's the only way they can accrue enough talent. They also don't have a fanbase which feels entitled. But when you talk about LA, I'd be absoltuely floored if they traded away Martin without getting at least a major leaguer comparable to EE and with prospects on top of that. Big market teams just don't do stars for prospects.
    Which is what I have said all along, and hopefully no one glossed over that fact. Is it possible we could add Martin and a good RH bat without completely emptying the shelves, I think so. Is it probable no.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  15. #59
    Member blumj's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Regarding Martin specifically, when was the last time a big market team traded away an all-star caliber player for nothing but prospects? Teams like the Twins, Marlins, and A's do it because it's the only way they can accrue enough talent. They also don't have a fanbase which feels entitled. But when you talk about LA, I'd be absoltuely floored if they traded away Martin without getting at least a major leaguer comparable to EE and with prospects on top of that. Big market teams just don't do stars for prospects.
    The only thing I've seen on the trade market so far that might convince the Dodgers to give up Martin might be Peavy. Could be more than 2 teams involved if something like that were the case, though. Obviously, assuming there isn't some really unusual, non-baseball reason the Dodgers would want Martin to go away.
    Last edited by blumj; 10-23-2008 at 03:10 AM.
    "Reality tells us there are no guarantees. Except that some day Jon Lester will be on that list of 100-game winners." - Peter Gammons

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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    The only thing I've seen on the trade market so far that might convince the Dodgers to give up Martin might be Peavy. Could be more than 2 teams involved if something like that were the case, though. Obviously, assuming there isn't some really unusual, non-baseball reason the Dodgers would want Martin to go away.
    Again, why trade a young catcher for a pitcher when you can sign one as a free agent?
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