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Thread: Russell Martin could be available??

  1. #31
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Phillips, AGon, Arroyo
    for
    Martin, Jones, Hu

    I think that's fairly even and a great idea by jojo.

    As to highlife's greed, I think a deal like:
    Ethier, Jones, Martin, Hu
    for
    Harang/ Arroyo (likely Harang), Phillips, AGon, Thompson

    would work
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  3. #32
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Here's an issue I have with a Dodgers trade though. I don't want to give up Phillips' defense. Hu would most likely be an offensive compromise for really, really good defense. Phillips is one of the better defenders at his position too. Add Martin to the middle mix and it's the foundations of a very solid defensive middle. Crossing your fingers with Stubbs by 2010 and the Reds could be an outstanding defensive club at the most premium defensive positions.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  4. #33
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    2B defense is, IMO, the most overrated in baseball. 3B and RF are, to me, much more important than is a solid keystone glove. Both corner spots take away doubles and good arms keep innings from being extended often.

    A good defensive 2B can turn a double play effectively.

    Jeff Keppinger, IMO, is an above average 2B. He's well below average at SS.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  5. #34
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Jeff Keppinger, IMO, is an above average 2B. He's well below average at SS.
    I strongly disagree with that, and the part about second base defense being overrated. I remember watching Kepp play second base in a couple games this season and I come away far from impressed. He has no range whatsoever at any position. Keppinger lacks the important first step quickness that good fielders have. If you watch him in person, the ball is usually on the ground before he even moves. Keppinger, IMO, shouldn't even be a lock to make the team out of spring training. He'll need to prove in ST that his bat is back to where it was in 2007/early 2008 just to make the team as a backup.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 10-21-2008 at 01:45 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  6. #35
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Keppinger > Jeff Kent, circa 2002 > average defense
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  7. #36
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    2B defense is, IMO, the most overrated in baseball. 3B and RF are, to me, much more important than is a solid keystone glove. Both corner spots take away doubles and good arms keep innings from being extended often.

    A good defensive 2B can turn a double play effectively.

    Jeff Keppinger, IMO, is an above average 2B. He's well below average at SS.
    I disagree with that. Pokey Reese, IMO, was a big part of that 1999 team, solely due to his defense. If you take him away from second and put an average to below average defender next to Barry Larkin in 99, it greatly reduces the strength of that team in the middle of the field, and probably results in less wins, IMO.

  8. #37
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Keppinger > Jeff Kent, circa 2002 > average defense
    And Jeff Kent is a Hall of Famer, whereas Keppinger is a 28 year old backup infielder with a career .728 OPS.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  9. #38
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    And Jeff Kent is a Hall of Famer, whereas Keppinger is a 28 year old backup infielder with a career .728 OPS.
    Jeff Kent is a HOF because of his bat, not his defense. Not that I am claiming Keppinger is a better defender than Kent but Kent isn't know for his defensive prowess.

  10. #39
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Jeff Kent is a HOF because of his bat, not his defense. Not that I am claiming Keppinger is a better defender than Kent but Kent isn't know for his defensive prowess.
    There's really only 4 players that are hall of famers because of their glove, Aparichio, Ozzie, Scooter and Maz.. can't think of any others off the top of my head, maybe Brooks Robinson as well.

  11. #40
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    There's really only 4 players that are hall of famers because of their glove, Aparichio, Ozzie, Scooter and Maz.. can't think of any others off the top of my head, maybe Brooks Robinson as well.
    I think Dave Concepcion just said a cuss word.....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #41
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Jeff Kent is a HOF because of his bat, not his defense. Not that I am claiming Keppinger is a better defender than Kent but Kent isn't know for his defensive prowess.
    My point is, you can forgive a guy for his underwhelming defense when he's got a HOF caliber bat.
    Last edited by OnBaseMachine; 10-21-2008 at 02:51 PM.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  13. #42
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    2B defense is, IMO, the most overrated in baseball. 3B and RF are, to me, much more important than is a solid keystone glove. Both corner spots take away doubles and good arms keep innings from being extended often.

    A good defensive 2B can turn a double play effectively.

    Jeff Keppinger, IMO, is an above average 2B. He's well below average at SS.
    Sorry scrap. The quality of defense at 2B takes away or allows hits up the middle and short pop flies to fall in or be caught, in addition to making the pivot on the double play. While its true that the occassional double or play that takes away a double is more spectacular, lack of range up the middle is a silent killer. Hits, Baserunners and extra pitches pile up and most people blame the pitcher when its the defense that should get a lot of the blame. Give me Phillips at 2B with a SS who has plus range over Keppinger and his perceived bat or even Kent and his actual bat.

    Since you brought him up, I do think Kent might be a decent cheap option as a stopgap 1B while Votto plays LF and Alonso puts in his time. He'd probbaly retire before agreeing to play in cincy though.

    I agree with OBM that Keppinger should be on the bubble as far as a roster spot goes. He offers no defensive value and his contact skills don't compensate for lack of power or on base skills.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  14. #43
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    The more I think about it the more Martin makes sense for us. Obviously he would for anyone but even moreso us. If we stick a big bat in LF and Gonzo stays (which at this point is more likely than not) we don't have an ideal #2 hitter or anyone remotely close other than maybe Votto. This is assuming of course worst case scenario Dickerson/Hairston play CF. Martin would be an excellent #2 hitter behind those guys and ahead of Votto and say a Holliday type.

    Dickerson/Hairston CF
    Martin C
    Votto 1B
    ???
    Bruce RF
    EE 3B
    BP 2B
    Gonzo SS

    That makes us a pretty solid lineup with power all around, discipline in more spots than not and no real slowpokes either. But I just can't see them trading Martin and if they do people will be out in force with top prospects for a top of the line catcher. I guess I might as well forget this pipe dream.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

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  15. #44
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    The more I think about it the more Martin makes sense for us. Obviously he would for anyone but even moreso us. If we stick a big bat in LF and Gonzo stays (which at this point is more likely than not) we don't have an ideal #2 hitter or anyone remotely close other than maybe Votto. This is assuming of course worst case scenario Dickerson/Hairston play CF. Martin would be an excellent #2 hitter behind those guys and ahead of Votto and say a Holliday type.

    Dickerson/Hairston CF
    Martin C
    Votto 1B
    ???
    Bruce RF
    EE 3B
    BP 2B
    Gonzo SS

    That makes us a pretty solid lineup with power all around, discipline in more spots than not and no real slowpokes either. But I just can't see them trading Martin and if they do people will be out in force with top prospects for a top of the line catcher. I guess I might as well forget this pipe dream.
    I think your number 4 hitter kind of sums up where the runs will come from with that lineup....
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #45
    Let's ride BRM's Avatar
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    Re: Russell Martin could be available??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    The more I think about it the more Martin makes sense for us. Obviously he would for anyone but even moreso us. If we stick a big bat in LF and Gonzo stays (which at this point is more likely than not) we don't have an ideal #2 hitter or anyone remotely close other than maybe Votto. This is assuming of course worst case scenario Dickerson/Hairston play CF. Martin would be an excellent #2 hitter behind those guys and ahead of Votto and say a Holliday type.

    Dickerson/Hairston CF
    Martin C
    Votto 1B
    ???
    Bruce RF
    EE 3B
    BP 2B
    Gonzo SS

    That makes us a pretty solid lineup with power all around, discipline in more spots than not and no real slowpokes either. But I just can't see them trading Martin and if they do people will be out in force with top prospects for a top of the line catcher. I guess I might as well forget this pipe dream.
    Shortstops bat second.


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