Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28

Thread: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

  1. #1
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild
    Strong nucleus of young talent could turn Reds into contender

    By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

    CINCINNATI -- One year after having 96 losses, the Tampa Bay Rays notched 97 wins this season in a stunning turnaround that carried them all the way to an American League championship and the World Series.

    And they did it with an under $44 million payroll -- budget baseball by today's standards.

    Reds fans are desperate for a winner again after suffering through eight straight losing seasons and no postseason berths since 1995. That, by the way, was three years before the Rays became an expansion team. One might wonder if a similar franchise resurrection can happen in Cincinnati and then ponder how long would it take.

    "I think they had a lot of things go right," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said of the Rays. "It's a good job of putting an organization together. It didn't happen overnight -- even though they had a bad record last year, a lot of the pieces were already in place."

    The Rays didn't have a bad record only last year, but for all 10 of their previous seasons in existence. Until 2008, Tampa Bay never won more than 70 games in a season and lost more than 100 three times. After debuting in 1998, the team made a disastrous attempt to contend quickly by signing expensive free agents, which set back development by years. There was a change in ownership a couple of years ago that finally set real progress into motion.

    All of those years at the bottom of the AL were good for one thing -- high first-round Draft picks. Many of them are stars on the current team, including third baseman Evan Longoria and pitcher David Price, the 2007 overall No. 1 pick. Price earned his first postseason win and first save before he's earned them in the regular season.

    The Rays also made some shrewd trades. Top lefty Scott Kazmir came over in 2004 from the Mets for Victor (not Carlos) Zambrano. Two more integral cogs came over in a deal with the Twins this past offseason when young pitcher Matt Garza and shortstop Jason Bartlett were acquired for outfielder Delmon Young and infielder Brandon Harris.

    Look at Tampa Bay now, Cincinnati.

    "If you do a good job with drafting and developing your young players, you have a chance to do that," Jocketty said. "They've drafted near the top for the last 10 years, and it's starting to come through."

    Winning on the relative cheap isn't a new concept. The Rockies reached the World Series last season with a $54 million payroll and the Marlins won the 2003 World Series with a $45 million payroll. The Twins, Diamondbacks and A's have also contended recently on a budget. All have relied mainly on the assets from within their organizations.

    "To be successful long term, you have to build a solid foundation with young players, player development and scouting," Jocketty said.

    Getting younger and building from within is a concept that has gained traction only in recent years with the Reds. That plan accelerated more this season as veteran would-be free agents like Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn were moved out.

    Younger players like Brandon Phillips, Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto now look to form the core of the Reds. Bruce and Votto were Draft picks, and Phillips and Volquez came over in trades. Cueto was signed out of the Dominican Republic.

    Catcher Ryan Hanigan, an undrafted player, was discovered in the Cape Cod League and impressed after his August callup. Other prospects had some success, like outfielder Chris Dickerson and starting pitchers Daryl Thompson and Ramon Ramirez.

    Cincinnati finished the 2008 season with a 74-88 record after having a $74 million Opening Day payroll. That amount could move up a couple of digits, but isn't expected to dramatically increase or decrease in 2009.

    There could be more prospects on the way as the farm system has made vast improvements in only a few years.

    "In our case, we have a good young nucleus. Hopefully, we can add the right pieces to improve our club," Jocketty said. "We've got to improve our defense. That will continue to help improve our pitching. We need to find one big bat, maybe two, that are run producers."

    If the Reds make the needed tweaks while the young guys mature and some real fundamental improvements are made, who knows? Maybe fans of some other long-suffering baseball city will look at Cincinnati with envy next season -- and hope.

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=cin
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Olathe, KS
    Posts
    13,793

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Basically, the key is to be absolutely awful for a number of years, get high draft picks, and use them wisely.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  4. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,843

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Basically, the key is to be absolutely awful for a number of years, get high draft picks, and use them wisely.
    Yep. That's worked very well for the Pirates and Royals!

  5. #4
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Basically, the key is to be absolutely awful for a number of years, get high draft picks, and use them wisely.
    While most of that is true, the Rays also drafted well beyond just the first round. Two of their key rotation pieces were late rounders: James Shields was a 16th rounder in 2000 and Andy Sonnanstine was a 13th rounder in 2004. Backup outfielder Fernando Perez was a 7th rounder. They've also made some shrewd trades picking up Kazmir for Zambrano, J.P. Howell for Joey Gathright, Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett for Delmon Young, and Dioner Navarro for Toby Hall and Mark Hendrickson.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    8,843

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    While most of that is true, the Rays also drafted well beyond just the first round. Two of their key rotation pieces were late rounders: James Shields was a 16th rounder in 2000 and Andy Sonnanstine was a 13th rounder in 2004. Backup outfielder Fernando Perez was a 7th rounder. They've also made some shrewd trades picking up Kazmir for Zambrano, J.P. Howell for Joey Gathright, Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett for Delmon Young, and Dioner Navarro for Toby Hall and Mark Hendrickson.
    Not to mention they have fantastic player development. Something that may get overlooked.

  7. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,643

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    That plan accelerated more this season as veteran would-be free agents like Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn were moved out.
    but...but...but.... veteran leadership!!!!

    Seriously, nothing against Mark Sheldon or MLB.Com but it's not like they are ever going to publish something critical of a major league baseball club. The notion of trying to win with youngsters isn't exactly new here in cincy. Steve Gibralter was going to lead us to the promised land too.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  8. #7
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,437

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Not to mention they have fantastic player development. Something that may get overlooked.

    I think that's an outstanding point. Of course guys like Price and Longoria didn't need much development but the point still stands. A trained chimp can pick the top amateur players but for the most part they still need to be developed.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  9. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    princeton, nj
    Posts
    9,482

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    guys like Price and Longoria didn't need much development.
    that's easy to say after they're developed.

    think that the Reds couldn't have turned one of those guys in Ryan Wagner or Austin Kearns?

  10. #9
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    26,510

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1 View Post
    Yep. That's worked very well for the Pirates and Royals!
    Key word is WISELY.

  11. #10
    Member Spring~Fields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    8,630

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine View Post
    Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild
    Strong nucleus of young talent could turn Reds into contender


    "I think they had a lot of things go right," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said of the Rays. "It's a good job of putting an organization together.

    "To be successful long term, you have to build a solid foundation with young players, player development and scouting," Jocketty said.

    "If you do a good job with drafting and developing your young players, you have a chance to do that," Jocketty said. "They've drafted near the top for the last 10 years, and it's starting to come through."
    Well the Reds have been drafting and developing young players for some years now.

    The Rays also made some shrewd trades. Top lefty Scott Kazmir came over in 2004 from the Mets for Victor (not Carlos) Zambrano. Two more integral cogs came over in a deal with the Twins this past offseason when young pitcher Matt Garza and shortstop Jason Bartlett were acquired for outfielder Delmon Young and infielder Brandon Harris.
    When does the "shrewd trades" start?

    I can't wait to see what they get for Freel and Hopper.


    Younger players like Brandon Phillips, Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto now look to form the core of the Reds. Bruce and Votto were Draft picks, and Phillips and Volquez came over in trades. Cueto was signed out of the Dominican Republic.
    These are all keepers, can't shrewdly trade them.

    Catcher Ryan Hanigan, an undrafted player, was discovered in the Cape Cod League and impressed after his August callup. Other prospects had some success, like outfielder Chris Dickerson and starting pitchers Daryl Thompson and Ramon Ramirez.
    Can they replace Harang and Arroyo so they can be "shrewdly traded" ?

    "In our case, we have a good young nucleus. Hopefully, we can add the right pieces to improve our club," Jocketty said. "We've got to improve our defense. That will continue to help improve our pitching. We need to find one big bat, maybe two, that are run producers."
    Question, question, Mr. Jocketty, Mr Jocketty? How are you going to do that when you can't trade pitching and you can't trade your young core, and you can't afford the risk of higher priced players and their long term contracts? 10 years of more drafts and player development?
    Last edited by Spring~Fields; 10-24-2008 at 04:28 PM.

  12. #11
    Member Highlifeman21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bristol, just around the corner from ESPN
    Posts
    8,694

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    that's easy to say after they're developed.

    think that the Reds couldn't have turned one of those guys in Ryan Wagner or Austin Kearns?
    or Brian Reith or Brandon Larson?

  13. #12
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    8,374

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by princeton View Post
    that's easy to say after they're developed.

    think that the Reds couldn't have turned one of those guys in Ryan Wagner or Austin Kearns?
    And after one season, its totally impossible for Longoria & Price to still turn into pumpkins? I think not. They're not "developed" yet. Both are still raw somewhat. Especially Price. I love both players and I think they'll both exceed expectations, but I'm also not going to diss the Reds player development considering the remarkable changes they've made over the past 2-3 years. The Rays are ahead of schedule, the Reds are right on schedule. We'll be fine as long as we don't gut the farm system for veterans.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  14. #13
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    8,374

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Spring~Fields View Post
    Question, question, Mr. Jocketty, Mr Jocketty? How are you going to do that when you can't trade pitching and you can't trade your young core, and you can't afford the risk of higher priced players and their long term contracts? 10 years of more drafts and player development?
    Walt: "Well, how about we package some of our lower tiered prospects together to answer our needs? Or a couple of FA acquisitions for short-term contracts or heavily incentive-based ones? And how about we really focus on coaching defensive fundamentals instead of just saying we're going to do that? Now put your hand down and behave yourself young man!" :O)
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  15. #14
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    34,844

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    I'd say the Reds have made some shrewd trades in the last few years. Brandon Phillips was acquired for Jeff Stevens. Josh Hamilton was acquired via a trade from the Cubs in the Rule 5 draft and then flipped for Edinson Volquez. Jared Burton was acquired via the Rule 5 draft. Bronson Arroyo was acquired for Wily Mo Pena. Those were all great deals from the Reds standpoint. They've also started drafting better recently.

    2005 draft:

    -A potential superstar in Jay Bruce.

    -Travis Wood, good stuff, good results in lower minors. Struggled in Double-A but is young and has good stuff.

    -Zach Ward was traded for Kyle Lohse who was then traded for Matt Maloney.

    -Jeff Stevens was traded for Brandon Phillips.

    -Carlos Fisher and Adam Rosales look to be future big leaguers.

    2006 draft:

    -Drew Stubbs finished the season in Triple-A. Plus-plus defensive center fielder with good on-base skills.

    -Chris Valaika, Sean Watson, Jordan Smith, Justin Turner, Josh Roenicke, Chris Heisey, Derrik Lutz, and Danny Dorn have already reached Double-A or higher.

    2007 draft:

    -This draft was considered one of the best by any team in all of baseball.

    -Mesoraco hasn't lit the world on fire yet but Todd Frazier, Kyle Lotzkar, Zach Cozart, Neftali Soto, and Evan Hildenbrandt all look like very good prospects. You can throw Jeremy Horst in there too.

    2008 draft:

    It's still way too early to judge the 2008 draft but Yonder Alonso and Zach Stewart both look like impact prospects with the ability to move quickly. Alex Buchholz also looks interesting along with Juan Carlos Sulbaran and some other relievers.

    The jury is still out on the 2004 draft. Homer Bailey will determine the grading of that draft - if he flops the draft is an "F", if he reaches his potential it's a successful draft. The awful drafts from the 90's through 2003 is what killed the organization. Thankfully things seem to be changing for the better under the new ownership.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  16. #15
    He has the Evil Eye! flyer85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    south of the border
    Posts
    23,858

    Re: Jocketty following Rays' lead to rebuild

    now Walt just needs that string of top5 draft picks for 10 straight years.
    What are you, people? On dope? - Mr Hand


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25