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Thread: Merged: UK Basketball

  1. #256
    Member Redhook's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Bogans, Chuck Hayes, Azubuike come to mind.
    Thanks.

    I did love Azubuike's game and name. Too bad he left a year too early. He'd be a lot richer and better if he had stayed one more year.

    Bogans - what a frustrating player. He should've been a lot better in college, IMO.

    Hayes - Great guy to have on a college team. Came in as a nobody and got better every year.

    Good players. They may have struggled to start for Pitino's teams though.
    "....the two players I liked watching the most were Barry Larkin and Eric Davis. I was suitably entertained by their effortless skill that I didn't need them crashing into walls like a squirrel on a coke binge." - dsmith421


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  3. #257
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Not bad for the worst recruiter ever, huh?
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  4. #258
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Not bad for the worst recruiter ever, huh?
    You have to admit by Tubby's last season the talent base was lacking. Even Vitale pointed that out. He came up short on the big recruits too many times in the last couple of seasons. UK was number two on Hansborough and Wright's list who both went to UNC tomention just two. Tubby really needed a good recruiting year behind the Rondo/Morris class but came up woefully short on that one. That did him in more than anything.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

  5. #259
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Redhook View Post
    They did have a couple of good years, but those teams still weren't championship-caliber in my opinion. They could beat the other SEC teams, but struggled to beat the more-talented teams across the nation.

    Tubby did an amazing job of turning one of the best programs in all of sports into something just above average. It's truly incredible how good the program was when he arrived to how bad it was when he left. What an epic display of crap.

    Tubby is a great person and a pretty good coach, but he has to be one of the worst recruiters ever. At Kentucky, All-Americans fall into your lap and he managed to bring in poor players over and over again. I'm still baffled how he was able to avoid All-Americans so easily.

    I'm optimistic that Kentucky will be back to one of the top teams in the country in the near future, but the task at hand is difficult due to the destruction that Tubby did to the program.
    Whole post quoted for truthiness.

    Redhook nailed it. I hear a lot from people OUTSIDE Kentucky's fandom about how wrong we are about Tubby, but rarely from people who have actually followed UK basketball closely and live it and breathe it day-to-day like UK fans do. Not saying that it's all-encompassing that only people outside the Big Blue Nation have this standpoint, I know dabvu knows his stuff with UK hoops from our time over the years in these threads, but mostly, these counterarguments come from outside.

    For the record, for those who credit the development of Rondo and Azubuike, in particular, with Tubby... not so much. The main reason those two left early for the NBA when everyone under the sun said they weren't ready, without slinging too much mud, had to do with Tubby and their fear of lowering their future stock. Sounds crass, but that's a fact. Kelenna had personal/family financial reasons to consider as well, but UK should never be a place kids want to ESCAPE to help their future stock as a pro. There are some positives that came from their time there (I do think Rondo upped his defensive game for the NBA thanks to his time at UK).

    If anybody REALLY thinks that Kentucky was in good shape at the end of Tubby's tenure, where they're completely irrelevant on a national level, unranked, not the national merchandise cow they once were, rarely WENT AFTER top recruits let alone land them, is either completely delusional or a fan of Louisville, Indiana, Florida, Tennessee or North Carolina... I can understand why they'd want Tubby to stay The fact that Kentucky is a three-year rebuilding job for Gillispie shows what shape the team was left in.

  6. #260
    Smooth WMR's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    LOL Javy, remember when Pitino came out in support of Tubby at Kentucky?



    Wonder why?

  7. #261
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Not bad for the worst recruiter ever, huh?
    I did say "one" of the worst recruiters ever, not the worst. And I stand by it, I still think he was a terrible recruiter at Kentucky.

    In 10 years, Tubby recruited Prince, Rondo, Azubuike, Hayes, and Bogans. Probably a few more decent ones that I can't think of right now, but those guys aren't all that. Pitino would almost top that class in one year let alone 10.

    Prince was a decent player in college. Too sporadic to be called great.

    Rondo was good, but had a terrible shot. He's definitely exceeding my expectations for him as a pro, but at the same time his current cast is all-world.

    Azubuike was pretty solid, but still not a huge recruit across the nation.

    I don't think Hayes was considered a recruit. He did turn into a solid college player, but I base that mostly on his work ethic.

    Bogans was a big-name when he came, but never lived up to expectations. One of the biggest disappointments for me.

    All in all, Tubby got some good players at UK. I don't know if any could be considered great. The bottom line is I could be the coach at UK, and I don't know squat about coaching, and I would luck into some good players because it is UK. UK, the basketball mecca. The program should not be where it is today. And I blame that on Tubby.
    "....the two players I liked watching the most were Barry Larkin and Eric Davis. I was suitably entertained by their effortless skill that I didn't need them crashing into walls like a squirrel on a coke binge." - dsmith421

  8. #262
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Tubby got burned by quite a few high profile recruits that didnt work out for one reason or another. Mike Bradley, Carruth, Jason Parker, Marvin Stone, Desmond Allison off the top of my head. If even a couple of those guys had lived up to the hype... Point is though, each of those guys was a big time recruit. Add them in with the guys that did work out... Tubby got some serious studs to come there.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  9. #263
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Here is my issue with the Tubby haters: I understand why you wanted him gone but I don't understand the desire to piss all over his grave as though he never did anything positive for Kentucky basketball.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  10. #264
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Here is my issue with the Tubby haters: I understand why you wanted him gone but I don't understand the desire to piss all over his grave as though he never did anything positive for Kentucky basketball.
    I posted this last year on the blog I have listed in my signature. If anything, it sums up my thoughts on Tubby (that and I get tired of re-hashing the same points):

    http://legionofcats.blogspot.com/200...1_archive.html

    This is quite a bit overdue, as the non conference schedule is past and we are into SEC play, but there is an issue that has still been bothering me.

    On March 22nd, 2007, four days after being eliminated 88-76 by Kansas in the second round of the NCAA tournament, Orlando "Tubby" Smith decided to resign as head coach of the University of Kentucky and accept a "new challenge" as he called it, rebuilding a Minnesota Golden Gopher program that was decimated by the recruiting antics of Dan Monson. Immediately on Sportscenter that evening, the very first person interviewed was Dick Vitale, who immediately praised Tubby for winning five SEC titles and averaging 26 wins a season. In addition, Vitale called out Kentucky fansfor their expectations, comparing them to the Yankees in baseball.

    Vitale is right on some points. The expectations at Kentucky are very high, but with those expectations come some of the greatest benefits in college basketball:


    Being able to coach at the winningest program in college basketball history (second to UCLA in NCAA tournament titles).

    The ability to recruit the top players in the nation.

    A top notch brand new on-campus practice facility.

    Being able to follow in the steps of coaches such as Adolph Rupp, Joe B. Hall, Eddie Sutton, and Rick Pitino. Yes, Sutton shamed the program and Pitino is a traitor, but their records speak for themselves.

    Being able to play in a downtown arena that leads the nation in home attendance.
    In addition to these benefits come the most passionate fans in all of college basketball. Former coach Rick Pitino called Kentucky fans the "Roman Legion of College Basketball". However, with those passionate fans come the expectations, sometimes unrealistic, of leading a team to prominence. Inheriting a roster led by Wayne Turner, Jeff Sheppard, and Scott Padgett, Tubby Smith did just that and took the Wildcats in his first year to their 7'th NCAA Championship.

    So what went wrong? Well, as much as people back then would have become furious for even mentioning it, Tubby Smith won that championship with Pitino's players. It sounds like an excuse, but the players that Pitino had left over were still very impressive, just not as much as the 1996 and 1997 teams.

    Tubby did have success with his own players, most notably in the 2002/2003 season when his team went 32-4 and went undefeated in SEC play, and would have likely made the Final Four if not for the efforts of Dwayne Wade and an injury to top scorer Keith Bogans. Two years later, Kentucky would again make it to the Elite Eight, losing in double overtime to Michigan St.

    Tubby is a successful and accomplished coach, but while his winning is well noted, there are several flaws to Tubby Smith while at Kentucky:

    Recruiting: You cannot deny the impact that the NBA has made on recruiting. In the day and age of Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Tracy McGrady, top teams were forced to adapt constantly to the changes being made and Tubby decided instead of going after players who were only going to be there for one year to pursue lesser players who would fit his system and would stay all four years. While Tubby did not go after the one and done players, the players he did recruit did well. Gerald Fitch, Chuck Hayes, Cliff Hawkins, Erik Daniels, Derrick Jasper, and Jodie Meeks are all talented players and three of the first four players have seen time in the NBA. The one recruiting class that consisted of four top recruits, Ramel Bradley, Joe Crawford, Rajon Rondo, and Randolph Morris, eventually ended up being Tubby's undoing.

    Style of Play: Tubby's style of play, known around the state as "Tubbyball", focused primarily on slowing down the tempo of the game on offense and pressuring the opponents on defense. This was a major turnoff for Kentucky fans who loved the up-tempo style of play that Rick Pitino made popular. Because of this style of play, the scoring distribution was fairly even with no single player dominating a game. Top players that Tubby did pursue nationally began to spurn Kentucky, most notably Tyler Hansborough and Brandan Wright, who committed to North Carolina and cited Kentucky's style of play as a reason for not committing.

    Conditioning: This is something I believe that Tubby needs to address if he is ever going to be truly successful with "his" players at Minnesota. Whether it was because he substituted freely and the players didn't have the motor to compete, or that the death of John Stewart (a commitment who collapsed and died during a high school game) possibly could have affected him in how hard he pushed his players, Tubby Smith teams constantly appeared out of shape and could not play against more physical teams. If you want proof of this, check this years team with Coach Gillispie versus last years team.
    These three things led to an overall decline of the Kentucky program in the last two years. Another reason that fans were not too fond of Tubby, unfortunately, is race. I personally do not share these views, but people in the state of Kentucky were not too thrilled to learn that the person coaching in "The House that Rupp Built" was black. You may not find many of these people in Lexington, but get further away from the central part of the state and you will find it still lives.

    In closing I leave you with this. Living in West Virginia, people are still bitter over the messy divorce involving Rich Rodriguez leaving WVU for the Big Ten and Michigan. However, the administration at Kentucky is not doing the same insane things that WVU has been claiming since Rodriguez left. It seems like every week something new is surfacing, and whether true or not, some people need to just let go and move on. I wish Tubby the best at Minnesota, and I think his style of play will work well there. I just hope that he adjusts his conditioning, or he will run into the same problems there that he fell into at Kentucky.

    Thank you for reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  11. #265
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    It also goes without saying, but Kentucky is winning 59-24 at half. Meeks has 27 of those points, going 7/11 from behind the arc.

    When Meeks is hot, he is an All American and NBA caliber.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  12. #266
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    Here is my issue with the Tubby haters: I understand why you wanted him gone but I don't understand the desire to piss all over his grave as though he never did anything positive for Kentucky basketball.
    I personally don't have any ill will towards the Tubster. I think he stayed at Kentucky about 4 years too long, but I have much love for the man for the coaching job he did in the 1998 NCAA tourney.

  13. #267
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS View Post
    I personally don't have any ill will towards the Tubster. I think he stayed at Kentucky about 4 years too long, but I have much love for the man for the coaching job he did in the 1998 NCAA tourney.
    IMO, Tubby was feeling the heat in 2001 and 2002 before the 2003 team went off. That 2003 season IMO bought Tubby the rest of his tenure here.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  14. #268
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    IMO, Tubby was feeling the heat in 2001 and 2002 before the 2003 team went off. That 2003 season IMO bought Tubby the rest of his tenure here.
    Yup.

  15. #269
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    I have been very encouraged by Liggins tonight. His on-court demeanor has been much improved and he is showing a willingness to run the offense the way Coach Gillispie wants.

  16. #270
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    Re: Merged: UK Basketball

    Great play by Liggins, Porter and Galloway tonight... Sure Patterson had 33 and Meeks had 32 w/ 8 3's... But if we get that kind of play out of the ball handlers we have the ability to do something great this season... 102-58 against Tenn. State is a big win, they went to Alabama the other night and scared them to death, coming out with a 9 point victory... Let's keep on keeping on... Happy Holidays everybody!


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