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Thread: Bob Boone Supporters, Chime in Please!

  1. #16
    Glenn Braggs
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    The Reds lose and the Bob Boone "bashing" continues?!

    Shouldn't we rather blame the players, like Reitsma, Moehler, Hamilton, Rijo, Chen, Larkin, Casey, LaRue and others instead of making it easy and putting all the blame on only the manager? It's still the Reds players who don't get the job done on the field.

    What makes a good manager? Good question ... but can someone really give the "right" answer for that? Was Jim Leyland during all the Pirates' losing seasons not a good manager? Can success solely be judged by the winning record, disregarding a low payroll, what kind of players the GM gets you, which injuries occur, which players have bad seasons, etc. etc. And what about Don Gullet? Is he a bad pitching coach because Reitsma, Hamilton, Rijo, Chen and Sullivan struggle? Or where is the difference?

    Was Sparky Anderson such a bad manager during his days with the Tigers? Or had he just a weak team to manage?

    Most of the Boone criticism which I read here is pure second guessing. Wow! After a certain pinch hitter struck out in a close game I could as well easily say: "Hell, why didn't he leave the starting pitcher in instead" or "Why didn't he pinch hit so and so for him". Best example is Reggie Taylor. A lot of posters were against him from the day he was acquired for Hector Mercado. We have enough outfielders, he will struggle ... and so on.

    Now that Reggie has a very good season for the Reds (I think he is currently even among the top five reserve outfielders in the game) all the critics have sudenly silenced. No admittance from someone who blasted Reggie earlier, that he was wrong. I still remember the grand slam Taylor hit or other crucial pinch hits where he won games for the Reds. And this only because Boone knew how valuable he can be to the team and because Bob Boone put him in the lineup when few of the fans here would have.

    As for there constand lineup shuffeling by Boone. Bob Brenly, the Diamondbacks Manager, does the same and his team isn't hurt one bit by it. So why should this have a negative effect? Why is Boone a micromanager for doing this and Brenly a great manager because of it?

    What I like about Bob Boone:

    - He is an intelligent baseball mind (I know that this makes some fans jealous)
    - He has the respect of the players (which is imo very important!)
    - He gives young players a chance
    - He is carefull with his pitchers, not overusing them
    - He doesn't see the game through rose colored glasses. Asked why Stinnett starts more and more instead of LaRue he tells it like it is.
    - He surrounds himself with good baseball people (Lefebvre, Knight), not afraid, that they could take his position.
    - He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover
    - He makes good use of the running game.
    - And yes, he just loves and wants to manage no matter if he is underpaid for it.


    I know that most people who don't like Bob Boone will not listen to any arguments for him anyway, so I will just leave it at that. I think he has done a solid job so far for the Reds and I am very happy to see him back next year.

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  3. #17
    Glenn Braggs
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    Originally posted by REDJAKE
    How can anyone complain YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!

    Judging people after what they are paid is really sad, if not dumb!

  4. #18
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    Originally posted by Red Thunder



    - He gives young players a chance
    - He is carefull with his pitchers, not overusing them
    - He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover.
    Isn't Mateo an example of a young player he hasn't given a chance to?

    Hasn't he overused the bullpen? He is only careful with starters. Isn't that why the Reds are near/at the bottom of IP/GS in all baseball? Is there a starter on the team who averages at least 6 innings per start?

    Is letting your son go half the season barely hitting .200 qualify as letting players go through slumps? What does "they belong to the game" mean?

  5. #19
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    To Red Thunder I judged Boone before he ever managed a game for us.He had a history if you paid any attention and it was terrible bafore he ever came here.I'm not saying he may not be useful but please not a mgr.Come to think of it he may be the best bullpen coach of all time lets put him down there and bring Hume into the dugout.GO CINCY03!!!!!

  6. #20
    syncope
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    Originally posted by Greenhills Pioneer


    Isn't Mateo an example of a young player he hasn't given a chance to?

    Hasn't he overused the bullpen? He is only careful with starters. Isn't that why the Reds are near/at the bottom of IP/GS in all baseball? Is there a starter on the team who averages at least 6 innings per start?

    Is letting your son go half the season barely hitting .200 qualify as letting players go through slumps? What does "they belong to the game" mean?

    Remember now, benching Aaron would have been a sign of nepotism.

  7. #21
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    Now that Reggie has a very good season for the Reds (I think he is currently even among the top five reserve outfielders in the game) all the critics have sudenly silenced. No admittance from someone who blasted Reggie earlier, that he was wrong. I still remember the grand slam Taylor hit or other crucial pinch hits where he won games for the Reds. And this only because Boone knew how valuable he can be to the team and because Bob Boone put him in the lineup when few of the fans here would have.
    I'm gonna clue you in on something- over the course of a MLB season, lesser players will- at times- step up to win games. Let's take a look at Taylor's stats: .269BA/.291OBP, 7CS in 18 SB attempts.

    Those are the stats of a "top five reserve outfielder"??? Taylor is a guy who swings at everything- and at times makes contact. Other than his power numbers (.472SLG), Taylor's hitting game is well below average. You won't hear anyone admit they were "wrong" because no one has been as to Taylor's lack of certain skills.

    - He is an intelligent baseball mind (I know that this makes some fans jealous)
    The only thing I'm jealous of is that Boone can continue to collect a paycheck while being bad at his job.

    - He has the respect of the players (which is imo very important!)
    You chastize others for "second-guessing" while you use pure speculation in an effort to defend Boone. You have no idea if the players respect him or not. In fact, I don't know of many professionals that will garner a lot of respect by very publicly pointing fingers at players. Boone has done this (most recently with Larue) a number of times.

    - He gives young players a chance
    Huh? Other than Taylor, what young players has Boone given a "chance"? Dunn and Kearns? A manager doesn't get credit for no-brainers. And he sure doesn't get credit for putting Reggie Taylor in the lineup. Ick.

    - He doesn't see the game through rose colored glasses. Asked why Stinnett starts more and more instead of LaRue he tells it like it is.
    Ironically, by looking at the lineups and in-game moves, I'd rather doubt that Boone has any comprehension of "how it is".

    - He surrounds himself with good baseball people (Lefebvre, Knight), not afraid, that they could take his position.
    Looking at the results, the only two "good baseball people" Boone has "surrounded" himself with are Gullett and Bowden- and that was by default. The were here before him, and I hope to God that they're here after he's gone.

    - He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover
    Boone has no idea what to do when a player "slumps". Instead of moving a slumping player down in the order (ex.- A. Boone), he leaves him in prime RBI slots for three months. Boone's lineups are a roll of the dice- and none of it has panned out.

    - He makes good use of the running game.
    Calling for steals when down by five in the ninth inning is not making "good use of the running game". Continuing to give steal signs to Reggie Taylor (who gets caught 40% of the time) is not "good use of the running game".

    - And yes, he just loves and wants to manage no matter if he is underpaid for it.
    Underpaid??? Based on his performance, Boone is dramatically overpaid. If I were as bad at my job as he is his, I wouldn't have to worry about being "underpaid" because I wouldn't have the job anymore.

    I know that most people who don't like Bob Boone will not listen to any arguments for him anyway, so I will just leave it at that.
    That's mainly because Boone's performance really leaves no compelling arguements for him.

  8. #22
    RedSchmo
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    I am loving this thread so far, but I am a little disappointed only Red Thunder came to Boone's backing to any length so far. Red Thunder made several points in the defense, but few were "hard evidence" based in fact that I asked for in the original post. Most of them have been shot down by Boone-Bashers (thank you, my bretheren!).

    So, Please Boone-Backers, where are you now? I want to see the evidence that Boone is a good manager.

    I do have one thing to input into the argument at this point in response to Red Thunder.

    Thunder you cited several managers (Leyland and Anderson included) who went through down years, but are considered great managers. The key here is that they had good years, and great years as well, besides the bad. Boone hasn't had a good year as a manager.

    In business, we often hire people by this premise "past behavior (performance) is the best predictor of future behavior (performance)." Detroit hired Sparky based on that, and he led them to a championship. Boone has no past success as a manager... at all.

    Lastly, I throw out a question to the Boone Backers to think about. What is the identity of this Reds team? In other words, what is the mark Boone has put on this team in two years? If someone said "you can tell that is a Bob Boone managed team...", what would that mean in any positive sense?

    Boone-backers come out!!! Let's here you!

  9. #23
    Glenn Braggs
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    Mateo
    He comes off a serious leg injury and was brought back slowly – nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I think that getting Ruben started again at AAA and especially getting him regular playing time there benefitted him much more than if he had sat on the Reds bench for most of the time. I see nothing wrong with that, actually it was a good move not to rush Mateo and instead go with Clark and Gonzales as extra outfielders/pinch hitters.

    Aaron Boone
    He is the managers son, but he is also the player with the most RBI and SB's on the team, second most HR's & Runs and third most doubles. Bob's strategy to keep the faith in his son clearly paid off, as he knew that the potential is there. Aaron also belongs to the highest paid players on the team which is another reason to let him play through a slump. To state that Bob wouldn’t have let another third baseman play through a slump is pure speculation and lacks any evidence.

    Overusing the bullpen
    I don’t think the bullpen is that badly overused. It just doesn’t perfom up to its expectations and this can not solely be blamed on their workload. In Sullivan’s case it seems that he has not been the same since being hit by a line drive. He has struggled ever since. White had hurt his foot, Graves is not your supercloser, Rijo has not much left anymore and Riedling and Williamson are brought back slowly and are not overworked. Willy even asked for more pitching time during one period where he felt that he could go more than just one inning per game.

    On the other hand, what other option do you have rather to go to the bullpen when you know (and statistics prove it) that your starters no matter if they are named Dessens, Haynes or Reitsma are knocked around badly if they have to pitch longer than 6 innings? Is it Boone’s fault that they lack stamina and are exhausted when they reach the 90+ pitch count? Well, of course he could leave them in and accept a .300 or worse batting average by the opposition against his starters and just hope for the best … but as the goal is to win games, he does exactly what he is supposed to do, he takes the pitcher out when he becomes uneffective to prevent the oppostition from scoring more runs and to prevent that the starter hurts his arm. Good job by Boone and don't forget that he doesn't have a choice most of the time!

    To Redjake
    You should better decide what you want. When you state “you get what you pay for” why do you expect to see a winning Reds team? Or better, in this case Bob Boone wouldn’t even be factor in the Reds winning or losing games. Because with the Reds having the lowest payroll in the NL Central, shouldn’t they also be supposed to finish last in their division? After your logic they should. As you only get what you pay for then we all should be happy with our overachieving Reds.

    And why was Boone terrible before he came here? Who says this? You? For your info; the Royals still suck and lose ... but I guess it must again be their manager (again) who prevents a good baseball team from winning, right?!

    Or do you solely base your opinion of a manager's abilities on his won-lost record? Then again may I ask if you also thought that Sparky Anderson with the Tigers, Jim Leyland or also Lou Piniella (remember the horrible ’91 season?) were bad managers when they had losing teams? In my opinion managers don’t make that much of a difference when it comes to winning ballgames. It’s just so easy and convinient to put all the blame on them … and combined with the American hire & fire mentality you have in the Reds case 6 managers over the last 11 years, and from year to year not much really has changed. Piniella, Perez, Johnson, Knight, McKeon and Boone. Is it really the managers fault when things don’t go as they are expected? Or do maybe also have payroll limitations, injuries to players etc. have something to do with winning? As even Davey Johnson was apparently not good enough to manage the Reds despite all the success he had I really don’t know what you all expect from a manager. Lou Piniella had a very bad season in ’91 with the Reds after winning the World Series the year before. I wonder if this suddenly made him a bad manager in the eyes of some fans?

  10. #24
    Glenn Braggs
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    Originally posted by RedSchmo
    Thunder you cited several managers (Leyland and Anderson included) who went through down years, but are considered great managers. The key here is that they had good years, and great years as well, besides the bad. Boone hasn't had a good year as a manager.

    The difference between Boone and Anderson is, that Sparky was directly handed a great team by the Reds. He only had to let the Big Red Machine play ... the great players made all the difference as you can see when he later took over the Tigers. As I said, I don't think that a manager has that much effect on the outcome of the game. Other managers like Leyland or Bobby Cox also needed their time (and most important a good team) to get to the playoffs. Bob Boone hasn't yet managed long, so I find it unfair to label him as a bad manager solely based on the W-L record of the teams he managed so far.

    I am also the last person to say he is the ultimate and best manager, but I just think that by criticising him over and over again some fans tend to lose out of sight a lot of the problems why the Reds have went from 11 games over to now 4 games under .500.

  11. #25
    Glenn Braggs
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    Reggie Taylor
    .269 BA (Reds team average: .255)
    4 triples
    8 homeruns
    11 stolen bases
    in 197 at bats

    Yes, these are good numbers for a 24th or 25th player on the roster. I don't expect more from a reserve outfielder, especially if he is not a veteran and plays for not much more than the minimum salary. From my knowledge there are few other 4th or 5th outfielders who can hit a homerun or triple at this rate or steal a base.


    You chastize others for "second-guessing" while you use pure speculation in an effort to defend Boone. You have no idea if the players respect him or not.

    No one who hasn't access to the Reds clubhouse will know for sure if Boone is respected or not. But according to reports from the media (articles in the Enquirer and the Post) and from Team Clark, Bob Boone is well or if you like it better seems to be well respected. And looking at LaRue's game and knowing that Bob was a catcher himself for several years I don't see anything wrong with him wanting to improve LaRue's catching skills. Everybody sees how Jason at times has problems at blocking pitches, so Boone doesn't really flame Jason when he just tells it like it is.



    Huh? Other than Taylor, what young players has Boone given a "chance"? Dunn and Kearns? A manager doesn't get credit for no-brainers. And he sure doesn't get credit for putting Reggie Taylor in the lineup. Ick.

    Playing Kearns regulary wasn't always a no-brainer. Since Larson arrived he always found a way to play him as well. Corky Miller and Luke Hudson got their chance, too. As Bob was with the Royals, he also wasn't afraid to give young and unproven players a chance back then even more as he has the chance to do now.

    Ironically, by looking at the lineups and in-game moves, I'd rather doubt that Boone has any comprehension of "how it is".

    That's your opinion. I believe that a man with a Psychology degree from Stanford and a 19 years of ML playing experience behind him knows what he is doing. Somehow the Reds front office seems to think the same as they renewed his contract.


    To make it short; I still think that Boone overall does a good job, despite his share of mistakes. And I still believe that most fans who want to see Boone fired forget that very likely no other manager could do a better job with this team, because the weak points are the players and not that much the manager.

  12. #26
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    Yes, these are good numbers for a 24th or 25th player on the roster. I don't expect more from a reserve outfielder, especially if he is not a veteran and plays for not much more than the minimum salary. From my knowledge there are few other 4th or 5th outfielders who can hit a homerun or triple at this rate or steal a base.
    So we've established that Reggie Taylor's OPS (.763) is adequate for the 24th or 25th player on the roster. Good deal. Unfortunately, Reggie Taylor gets a lot more at-bats than someone who is generally the 24th or 25th player on the roster. You might want to check the stats. There are a NUMBER of 4th or 5th OF in MLB who can put up a .763OPS and get caught stealing 40% of the time.

    BTW- Reggie Taylor's OPS is currently higher than Aaron Boone's (.749). That's not an indicator of how good Taylor is. That's an indicator of exactly how bad Aaron Boone's 2002 season has been. I would think that we could expect our starting 3B to put up better numbers than the "24th or 25th" player on the roster.

    No one who hasn't access to the Reds clubhouse will know for sure if Boone is respected or not.
    Exactly. So you're speculating that he is. I don't have access to that information so I'm not going to speculate that he's not.

    Playing Kearns regulary wasn't always a no-brainer. Since Larson arrived he always found a way to play him as well. Corky Miller and Luke Hudson got their chance, too.
    Yes. Playing your future superstar 22-year old outfielder is a no brainer. Miller and Larson (Miller especially) never have had legitimate chances. Miller was putting up tremendous numbers (half of his hits for extra bases) yet continually sat due to Larue's presence. So Larue, who can't hit, starts in front of a guy who can (Miller)- yet now Boone has all but benched Larue in favor of an aging retread??? Miller got no real "chance". He was benched in favor of a guy who's now being publicly dissed by our Manager.

    That's your opinion. I believe that a man with a Psychology degree from Stanford and a 19 years of ML playing experience behind him knows what he is doing.
    Well, that Psychology degree certainly qualifies Boone to manage a MLB club. What was I thinking?

    As for his 19 years of playing experience- history has shown that playing experience does not necessarily translate to success in management.

    And I still believe that most fans who want to see Boone fired forget that very likely no other manager could do a better job with this team...
    You're kidding. You must be. Our own management did not consider Bob Boone anywhere near the top of the managerial prospect list. Now, this is just simple logic- but that would mean that they felt a number of other canditates would have done a much better job.

    Bob Boone is our manager because he was 1) Cheap and 2) Available- not because of his ability level. And he's certainly showing it.

  13. #27
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    Boone

    Red Thunder,
    I mostly agree with your perception of the situation here in Cincy.
    I am also the last person to say he is the ultimate and best manager, but I just think that by criticising him over and over again some fans tend to lose out of sight a lot of the problems why the Reds have went from 11 games over to now 4 games under .500.
    Lack of quality starting pitching. The same problem which has haunted us for the last six years.

    As to another poster:
    Our own management did not consider Bob Boone anywhere near the top of the managerial prospect list. Now, this is just simple logic- but that would mean that they felt a number of other canditates would have done a much better job.
    First of all, MLB says teams must look at minority hiring thus Randolf and other non-caucasians were interviewed (Sr.) or else get fined like the Tigers did. The smokescreen of offering a low salary to Randolf because the Reds probably did not want him nor did he probably want to enter the FO mess. Sr. knew better. Oester was the first choice, face it, with Boone talking his way into the position. Cheap and available sure but why wouldn't a guy with a 80k job as coach take over this team as manager for 350k.
    UNC - God's Country

  14. #28
    1990WorldChamps
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    The Boone supporters seem to be saying "Ok, we know that Boone is not a solid manager, but managers don't win games, players win games." This is really missing the point. The fact is that each part of a team affects whether a team wins or loses ballgames, from the front office (Lindner-ugh) to the last guy on the bench (Castro-ugh). Why not strive for excellence?

    The evidence would suggest that the baseball industry does not hold Bob Boone in very high regard as a manager. He was not offered another management job for over 3 years after he was fired in KC. Hell, he was 3rd or 4th on the Reds list when he did get an offer here, and his biggest selling points were that he was 1. Cheap, 2. Cheap, and 3. Very cheap. After his tenure here I would be shocked if he is ever offered another management job at the major league level. If the Reds do not contend next year, he will be out of a job.

  15. #29
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    Originally posted by SteelSD


    Other than his power numbers (.472SLG), Taylor's hitting game is well below average.



    I'm not sure that it's fair to exclude a player's greatest strength in evaluating his ability. His power is what separates him from most spare OF's. His only real problem is lack of walks. It's the only difference between his season's and Dunn's this year. Same BA, same power. It shows what a 100 walks can do for you.

  16. #30
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    Originally posted by PuffyPig


    I'm not sure that it's fair to exclude a player's greatest strength in evaluating his ability. His power is what separates him from most spare OF's. His only real problem is lack of walks. It's the only difference between his season's and Dunn's this year. Same BA, same power. It shows what a 100 walks can do for you.
    I don't think I did discount Taylor's Slugging%. In fact, I gave him credit for it. But Taylor's power is not a rarity among spare ML outfielders:

    B Buchanan (SD)- .520 SLG
    A Echevarria (CHC)- .493 SLG
    J Michaels (PHI)- .511 SLG
    T Tarasco (NYM)- .490 SLG
    K Garcia (CLE)- .541 SLG
    R Thompson (MIL)- .626 SLG
    E Perez (STL)- .469 SLG
    W Cordero (MON)- .492 SLG
    A Hyzdu (PIT)- .515 SLG
    J Mabry (OAK)- .576 SLG
    O Merced (HOU)- .472 SLG

    Now, what you're not going to find is a lot of "spare" OF with more AB than those players- mainly because spare OF generally don't get as many AB as Reggie Taylor (and most on this list don't have as many AB).

    What you will find if you check the stats, is that the list of Reggie Taylor-like hitters grows much longer if you expand to include overall OPS instead of just Slugging Percent numbers.


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