Greatest Hype Greatest Letdown All Time Reds Team

[Caseyfan21]

This thread reminds me so much of 1997. First, a lot of us thought Bowden was a genius for acquiring Chris Stynes and Jon Nunnally:

Pos Player              Ag   G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO   BA    OBP   SLG  SB  CS  GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    Chris Stynes        24   49  198   31   69   7  1   6   28  11   13  .348  .394  .485  11   2   5   4   2   0   1
    Jon Nunnally        25   65  201   38   64  12  3  13   35  26   51  .318  .400  .602   7   3   2   2   1   1   0
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
Stynes & Nunnally 1997      114  399   69  133  19  4  19   63  37   64  .333  .395  .544  18   5   7   6   3   1   1

As others mentioned, it looked like Willie Greene was going to live up to his potential.
Eduardo Perez showed a glimmer of hope.
Curtis Goodwin was thought to be one of the best top-of-the-order speedster prospects in the game.
Mike Kelly did a good job off the bench and had the tools to be considered for one of the starting spots in the crowded outfield.
Eric Owens, Aaron Boone, and Pat Watkins were all coming up and seemed like they might be able to contribute at some point.
Pokey Reese had a rough rookie year, but not long after, he looked like he could become what Brandon Phillips is.
John Smiley was traded for four quality prospects, three of whom were pitchers, in Damian Jackson, Jim Crowell, Scott Winchester, and Danny Graves.
Scott Sullivan, Hector Carrasco, and Gabe White were anchoring a solid bullpen that was continuing to dumpster dive for successful closers.
Paul Bako, Tim Belk, and Chad Mottola were still prospects.
Brett Tomko was considered to be a future top-of-the-rotation starter.
Todd Williams (or as I prefer to call him, the original Todd Coffey) had good velocity on his fastball, which was at the time equated with being a potential future closer.
Steve Gibralter was getting people excited, and Brandon Larson was still a huge shortstop prospect.
Brady Clark was rocketing through the system.
Justin Towle crushed AA as a 23-year-old, and with prospects like Towle, Bako, Gorky Miller, Guillermo Garcia, and Justin LaRue, it looked like the Reds might not need to worry about catching for a very long time.
Buddy Carlyle was dominant as a 19-year-old in A-ball.
Jose Acevedo had nasty stuff.
Dewayne Wise, Mike Frank, and Scott Williamson were new to the organization.
Johnny Oliver was waiting on a cure for night blindness.

This is basically a who's who of my 1990-2000 era Reds memories. How many autographs did I get from these guys as a kid? My baseball would probably sell for more on Ebay now if it was blank then signed by this list of the next great Reds legends.

[KronoRed]

Austin Kearns

If Kearns is on the list then our old pal Wily Mo Pena should be as well, Wily Mo was going to be the next JR, if only he could hit a curve ball

[Cooper]

Why didn't the Reds make the transition from 70-81 to 82 -85?

They were the BRM and then the worst team in baseball. We all know the obvious reasons (f.e. Dick Wagner, lack of free agency aquisitions, etc...).

What were the not so obvious reasons? I seem to remember a few, but my memory is not what it used to be.

1. Didn't Pete try to make every guy with a little bit of speed a punch and judy hitter? I know he tried to do so with Eric Davis. I am guess he might have attempted the same thing with Redus and Milner. This approach never works at the mlb level.

2. The team had a great minor league system in the 60s and very early 70's. You look at the draft choices from say 1973 on and it's clear the system dried up. They had a good many high draft choices not even come close to making it. At the time of the BRM we constantly heard how the transition would be smooth because of the scouting dept. Because the big league team could do know wrong- it was assumed the scouting dept could not fail. They were already failing. It's just no one knew it.

3. Was there an organizational problem? We know they were behind the times with many silly things--but did that approach effect other areas?

4. The teams lack of ability to draft and develop a pitcher was terrible.

What happened beyond the obvious?

5. It was the go-go 80's. Was their a drug problem in the dugout?

[AmarilloRed]

Wasn't that the period where Marge Schott totally destroyed the Reds' scouting system. I still remember her infamous quote about scouts:

"All they do is watch baseball games"

[George Anderson]

It was nothing more than a farm system that was dry and a front office that wouldn't spend money. Not a recipe for success.

I never heard anything about any type of drug problem. Eddie Milner and Leon Durham are the only ones during that era that I can think of that had that knock against them.

[westofyou]

What happened beyond the obvious?

To me the culture stagnated, the gear up for expansion drained some of the best scouts out of the system in the early sixies (Bobby Mattick is a great example) and then 10 years later you really see the result of that as the Reds stopped producing great players from the minors by the mid 70's. Then the Howsam group was firmly entrenched in a mindset that was not current or open to embracing other soldiers from different organizations, thus the Reds mindset grew moss covered as the Howsam and Wagner group surrounded themselves with yes men and that created no input to combat the changing times (free agency, agents, arbitration, super stations) cultural changes were also apparent as the crew cut crew of the Reds F.O. had an increasingly hard time understanding and massaging the ball player of that era. This was obvious as the Reds last move in that vain was the hiring and firing of Vern Rapp, it was at that point that they figured out that they had 2 wheels in the ditch and were low on gas as well.

[OnBaseMachine]

I wish there was a way to go back and look at top 10 prospect lists from the '60s and '70s. Baseball America only goes back to 1981 and they didn't start producing top 10 prospect lists until 1983. I was looking through the archive a few days ago and was amazed at how great that 1984 list turned.

1. Kurt Stillwell, ss
2. Eric Davis, of
3. Curt Heidenreich, rhp
4. Chris Sabo, 3b -
5. Jeff Russell, rhp
6. Paul O'Neill, of
7. Tom Browning, lhp
8. Lenny Harris, 3b
9. Jeff Montgomery, rhp
10. Hugh Kemp, rhp

Eric Davis became a superstar and would have been a sure Hall of Famer if not for the injury bug. Chris Sabo put together a few very good seasons and won a ROY and World Series ring. Jeff Russell only played two seasons with the Reds but he went on to throw roughly 1100 innings with an ERA at 3.75 and ERA+ of 112. Paul O'Neill had a stellar career as he made five All-Star teams, won five World Series titles, and racked up 2,105 hits and 281 homers. Tom Browning won 123 games and threw the only perfect game in Reds history. Lenny Harris put together a couple solid seasons and went on to become the all-time pinch hit leader. Jeff Montgomery only threw around 19.1 innings with the Reds but went on to have a solid career with the Royals (868.2 IP, 3.27 ERA, 134 ERA+).

[Chip R]

How about former #1 overall pick in the country Tracy Jones?

He's still hyping himself.

[westofyou]

He's still hyping himself.

1st pick of the January draft that disappeared as part of the game 4 years later, that's like being the NIT Basketball champ.

[George Anderson]

1st pick of the January draft that disappeared as part of the game 4 years later, that's like being the NIT Basketball champ.

What is the reason behind having two drafts?

[westofyou]

What is the reason behind having two drafts?

Initially there were supposed to be three amateur drafts held each season. That original plan changed in 1964 and was reduced to two drafts with the first phase being held after High School graduations. The second phase was held in January of the following year and involved players who were drafted earlier, but were not signed by their franchise.

In 1986 the two-phase draft system was changed and instead of holding a second phase draft in January, franchises who could not sign their first round selections were awarded a supplemental first round pick the following amateur draft.

[wheels]

One of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time.

Redszone kicks butt.

[Cooper]

Marge's craziness didn't happen till about 84/85. The BRM's minor league downturn occured around 71 or 72. For about 5 or 6 years there big picks did nothing. They just didn't on any of those guys...not until about 78/79 did it start to pick up. WOY knows the dates better than i do. I do remember when they did make a pick -they assumed the pick would hit big because they were the BRM- at least- that was the average fan's prevailing wisdom.

As for the drug culture- it was wide spread and a part of the times...it effected many a player that have gotten it together and lived solid lives (Molitor- for a while he lost his mind, Parker, Wilson, the whole Pirate clubhouse, Mayberry, etc....and those are the guys we know about). Folks thought it wasn't too addictive -though by 84/85 they should've known better. You wonder if careers that were ready to take off-just didn't because of drug use. Guys that should have projected to have good careers and just didn't.

Lastly, (and i hesitate to mention this) i still wonder if Rose was more of a detriment that a positive as a manager. The guys that love him (Browning,Jones, etc...) would've succeeded with anyone as manager. The way he played was a incredible positive for young players. The way he managed his personal life may have cancelled out much of the good that was done.

[Cyclone792]

One of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time.

Redszone kicks butt.

Between this thread and the futility thread, there's a whole lot to talk about. And that's because there's been a whole bunch of crap to pass through Cincinnati wearing a Reds uniform in recent memory.

[Vada Pinson Fan]

Instead of Dawkins, Antonio Perez went.

It wasn't Dawkins. It was Pokey Reese that Bowden would not deal to Seattle et.al. for KGJ. Here's a link- http://www.thecabin.net/stories/1219...219990062.html