Charlie Weiss alienates alumni and recruits

[MWM]

From what someone said on the radio earlier this week, Weis has not been developing the talent. He has gone almost exclusively with his first team and his younger players couldn't get the opportunity to develop under game conditions. The same guy said that Weis is doing better now about that. My take is that he's a great recruiter - although it isn't difficult to get guys to come to ND - he's a great offensive coordinator but he's a poor head coach. There's no shame in that. Many coaches were better suited as offensive or defensive coordinators and were just not head coach material. I didn't get to watch a lot of the USC game last night but USC was just having their way with ND. A USC guy would catch a pass and it would take 3-4 ND guys to bring him down after he broke a few tackles. The problem is that ND wants their program to be on the same level as USC. Going by from what I saw last night, they have a long way to go no matter who the coach is.

That might very well be true. Coaching history is littered with great x's and o's guys who were poor once they were the leaders. Weis might be one of those guys. But I know enough about recruiting and just how bad the talent situation was when he got there. I don't think there are many coaches who could have won last year in South Bend. This year, that might be different. But he did double the win total, so I think you have to give him at least one year to win with his players. I think that's what will happen. Next year we'll learn if he's head coach material or not.

[Highlifeman21]

How many years has he been at ND now?

Seems like all of these top 10 recruiting classes he has assembled would make losing to Syracuse at home an impossibility. Is his player development THAT bad?

Or it's possible that Notre Dame's last 3 recruiting classes aren't as great as originally advertised.

[redsfanmia]

Or it's possible that Notre Dame's last 3 recruiting classes aren't as great as originally advertised.

The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

[MWM]

The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

Not true at all. PLayers are ranked long before they sign with any school. There's a forumula in place for most recruiting publications that rank schools based on the # of 3,4, or 5 start recruits they get.

[Puffy]

The recruits are elevated in rank once they sign with Notre Dame.

Actually, the last couple of years they have had more recruits de-elevated than elevated.

And, as MWM already pointed out, the stars are in place long before players start signing. Once they get rated they generally only can move one level.

Finally, just to quash any more wrongful info - in the last three years no ND signee has moved up more than a few places after signing with ND. Michael Floyd is the only one that went from 4 star to 5 star last year and he proved on the field that he deserved it.

[Marc D]

As long as we are clearing up facts in this thread, I keep seeing that CW hasn't had enough time?

CW was hired in Dec 2004. That means he had a hand in recruiting the 2005 Freshman and is 100% responsible for anyone who signed on after 2006. A 2006 Freshman just completed his JR year. Am I missing something or are my dates wrong?

3 years of his own recruits seems like it should be long enough for such a self admitted offensive genius to take his schematic advantage and do better than the 85th best scoring offense in the country.

I can almost buy the logic that it takes 4-5 years to build up the talent base to compete with the USC's and other big time schools they play but how much do you have to stockpile to beat Navy or Syracuse?

[Cedric]

Anyone that thinks offer lists don't matter in star rankings are wrong. Players rankings change drastically from month to month based on who is offering, how the player is playing, and growth. Sometimes players that commit early are downgraded because they can't sell subscriptions, I don't deny that. But it is well known that Tom Lemming would pump up and hype recruits based on a Notre Dame offer. And it's well known that Scout.Com has hyped ND recruits. Their All American Bowl game is played on NBC and is laughable in it's promotion of ND recruits.

Check out how many Notre Dame recruits have played in that game in recent years and compare their rankings from Scout to Rivals. It's obvious there is a bias.

[Puffy]

As long as we are clearing up facts in this thread, I keep seeing that CW hasn't had enough time?

CW was hired in Dec 2004. That means he had a hand in recruiting the 2005 Freshman and is 100% responsible for anyone who signed on after 2006. A 2006 Freshman just completed his JR year. Am I missing something or are my dates wrong?

3 years of his own recruits seems like it should be long enough for such a self admitted offensive genius to take his schematic advantage and do better than the 85th best scoring offense in the country.

I can almost buy the logic that it takes 4-5 years to build up the talent base to compete with the USC's and other big time schools they play but how much do you have to stockpile to beat Navy or Syracuse?

You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

[Marc D]

You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

You don't have to defend him to this OSU fan. I hope he stays forever.

As far as OSU coaches go, if they were losing like CW is I doubt you'd anger too many OSU fans by insulting them. I obviously don't condone it but if CW were the coach at OSU he'd be in fear for his life at this point, not just his job.

Hell, Tressel needs a good showing in this Bowl game or the questions about him and his staff will start getting above a dull roar.

[WVRed]

You bring up good points MarcD -

He's had three complete classes. I don't blame him at all for last year (thats how bad things were with Willingham). This year, ND played just like I thought up til the second half of the Pitt game and then they regressed. Badly. And thats where I blame Weis. He's actually lost me as a supporter. I'm willing to give him another year, but my hopes are, well, not optimistic.

Funny how I still have to defend him though on a Reds message board from Ohio State fans who would crucify me if I said half as bad of things about Tressel (or Cooper back 7 years ago).

Ohio State fans - Double standards since forever.

At least you're not a Kentucky fan with Tubby Smith.

[MWM]

I don't think it's quite fair to count the first class. He came into the job in December. Mostkids have already made decisions by that point in time, or at least have it narrowed down to a couple of schools. They've been going through the recruiting process for more than a year. To expect a coach to come in and field a strong class that late in the game is asking a lot. The current sophomore class is really his first full recruiting class.

And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.

[Reds Fanatic]

According to ESPN several sources out of South Bend are reporting tonight that Weiss will be back for another year.

[Puffy]

And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.

I don't care if people question his coaching - hell, I now seriously question his ability to develop any talent. Any developing by Charlie of someone not named Quinn has been non-existent.

What I have a problem with is the "Fat Charlie" etc comments that no one but me has said a word about.

If I personally attacked an OSU coach I would hear it six ways to Sunday - but the crickets are deafening when its a comment against ND.

[Marc D]

I don't think it's quite fair to count the first class. He came into the job in December. Mostkids have already made decisions by that point in time, or at least have it narrowed down to a couple of schools. They've been going through the recruiting process for more than a year. To expect a coach to come in and field a strong class that late in the game is asking a lot. The current sophomore class is really his first full recruiting class.

And for the record, the majority of the negative CW comments in this thread are coming from fans not of OSU, but other schools. Just thought I'd clear that up.

I still think you are giving him an extra season in there.

CW hired Dec 2004--Signing day 2005 kids not really his--->freshmen in 2005 season.

Signing day Feb 2006 kids 100% his---> Freshmen fall of 2006---> Just completed their JR (3rd) season this year/2008 season.

So the kids who just finished their 4th/SR season were the ones from the partial class of his on signing day 2005. Everyone else has been in the program at least 3 years.

Like I said, as an OSU fan I hope he stays but f I were a Domer fan interested in winning again I wouldn't be buying the "they aren't his kids yet" line.

I remember hearing Lou Holtz say that Ara told him when he got the job that he needed every bit of his HC experience to handle it and Holtz fervently agreed once he went through it. CW had zero HC experience before stepping into a situation legends like Ara and Holtz found demanding even with their experience when they took the job. He's simply in over his head imo.

I can understand ND not wanting to admit a mistake and give him another year but he's not going to flip some magic switch in the off season. The worse thing that could happen to ND fans is what happened to OSU fans in 1994. The mediocre coach who should already be gone gets a win or else ultimatum, pulls one out of his posterior and continues his sucking ways for another 6 years or so.

[*BaseClogger*]

What I have a problem with is the "Fat Charlie" etc comments that no one but me has said a word about.

If I personally attacked an OSU coach I would hear it six ways to Sunday - but the crickets are deafening when its a comment against ND.

It's just a nickname, get over it.

And the reason no one cares he is called that is because it is a silly nickname and because a majority of college football fans dislike Notre Dame...