Is this world just nuts????

[Ltlabner]

What's ironic is that *I'm* the one arguing for personal responsibility--the manager of this store is guilty; he ignored the environment present on his premises--he said, "My few workers can handle the rush of 2000 people." Others are arguing for something that doesn't really exist: guilty parties amid chaos. Looking to punish shoppers for doing what shoppers do doesn't seem particularly productive. Now if an individual shopper were to get inside the store and punch or knife another shopper, then we've got a very different circumstance. We have an act of volition.

What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks? Funny, I go to the grocierey with the wife when things are on sale and have never witnessed a frenzied mob at the deli counter.

I'd argue that, stomping on people and bum rushing a store is not, in fact, "what shoppers do".

And I agree the store manager/corporation is liable, and have said so several times. I'm in no way absolving them of any responsiblity.

But then again, I'm not absolving the people of their responsiblity in the matter either. The notion that they are blameless and without fault is flatly silly.

[Falls City Beer]

What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks?

Yeah. It's been happening in this country for years and years. Every single Black Friday in the span of my memory. That more haven't been killed is a combination of smart planning, security, crowd control, and luck.

[Yachtzee]

What shoppers do? So it's totally normal for people to stampede into a store to save a few bucks? Funny, I go to the grocierey with the wife when things are on sale and have never witnessed a frenzied mob at the deli counter.

I'd argue that, stomping on people and bum rushing a store is not, in fact, "what shoppers do".

And I agree the store manager/corporation is liable, and have said so several times. I'm in no way absolving them of any responsiblity.

But then again, I'm not absolving the people of their responsiblity in the matter either. The notion that they are blameless and without fault is flatly silly.

Of course, your grocery store doesn't advertise a 5 am store opening with special "DOORBUSTER!" deals in "extremely limited supply." Retail stores encourage the mobbing and camping out and the shopping frenzy because it makes them look like selling lots of stuff. People see that and perceive Walmart as having great deals and will come down to do their christmas shopping. Often, the items they may be looking for are sold out, but they'll stay to do some of their other shopping.

Personally, I have no problem if stores want to do business this way, but if they're going to advertise these sales with words like "Doorbusters" and "extremely limited supply," they had better put on enough security to ensure the crowds don't take the notion of "doorbusting" literally.

[Ltlabner]

Yeah. It's been happening in this country for years and years. Every single Black Friday in the span of my memory. That more haven't been killed is a combination of smart planning, security, crowd control, and luck.

You are confusing a large crowd with a stampede.

You were making the case that it's totally normal and expected for shoppers to run amok and kill people and that somehow the only folks with any shred of control and responsibility is the store.

I don't know anybody that goes to the mall expecting to be mowed down like the running of the bulls. Maybe Philly is just a crappy place where that sort of behavor is expected and tollerated?

At somepoint, people should be expected not to act like jackasses, especially when it results in the death of another human.

[Ltlabner]

Personally, I have no problem if stores want to do business this way, but if they're going to advertise these sales with words like "Doorbusters" and "extremely limited supply," they had better put on enough security to ensure the crowds don't take the notion of "doorbusting" literally.

I agree 100% and haven't argued otherwise.

My only beef is this fable that every last person in the crowd was pure as the wind-driven snow and that somehow a tractor beam from the electronics department sucked them into the store.

[Chip R]

Wal Mart's going to pay $2M in order to avoid criminal charges.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090506/...wal_mart_death


Wal-Mart pays $2M to avoid charges in death probe

By FRANK ELTMAN, Associated Press Writer Frank Eltman

MINEOLA, N.Y. – Wal-Mart agreed Wednesday to pay nearly $2 million and improve safety at its 92 New York stores as part of a deal with prosecutors that avoids criminal charges in the trampling death of a temporary worker.

Nassau County District Attorney Kathleen Rice, who began a criminal investigation shortly after last November's customer stampede at Wal-Mart's Valley Stream store, said that if she had brought criminal charges against the retailer for negligence in the worker's death, the company would have been subject to only a $10,000 fine if convicted.

Instead, she said, the company has agreed to implement an improved crowd-management plan for post-Thanksgiving Day sales, set up a $400,000 victims' compensation and remuneration fund, and give a $1.5 million grant to Nassau County social services programs and nonprofit groups.

The agreement included no admission of guilt by Wal-Mart.

"Rather than bringing the world's largest retailer to court and imposing a small fine against them, I felt it was important to require significant safety changes that will affect the whole state," Rice said. "Our goal is for the protocols that are set up to be the gold standard for crowd management in this industry."

Wal-Mart vice president Hank Mullany said, "The crowd management plan we are announcing today was developed by a team of experts whose experience includes NFL Super Bowls, Olympic games, concerts and national political conventions."

Jdimytai (Jimmy-tree) Damour, a temporary employee, had been on the job for about a week and had no training in security or crowd control when a crowd estimated at 2,000 broke down the Valley Stream store's doors, trapping him in a vestibule.

Built like an NFL linebacker at 6-foot-5 and 270 pounds, the 34-year-old Queens man died of asphyxiation. Eleven others, including a pregnant woman, were injured.

Earlier this year, Damour's family announced plans to sue the county, retailer and others. The family's attorney did not immediately comment on Wednesday's announcement.

Any victims who accept payment from the Wal-Mart compensation fund will be required to waive their right to a separate civil suit against Wal-Mart, Rice said. Also, she said, Wal-Mart has agreed to advertise the compensation fund in the daily and weekly newspapers that cover Valley Stream and its surrounding neighborhoods.

"Facilitating the compensation is one of the main goals of this settlement," she said.

The company also agreed to an independent review of its procedures for post-Thanksgiving Day sales. The prosecutor said her office will oversee compliance.

"We are hoping that this safety plan becomes the nationally recognized model for crowd management among all retailers and becomes an industrywide best practice," she said.

The community grant money includes $1.2 million for Nassau County's Youth Board, which helps nonprofit agencies provide career development, employment training and other opportunities. The retailer also will donate $300,000 to the United Way of Long Island's Youth Build Program in Nassau County. The deal also calls for Wal-Mart to hire 50high school students annually to work in its five stores in the county.