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Thread: Is this world just nuts????

  1. #16
    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    The chances of actually being able to bring people up on charges for their participation is slim to none, I agree.

    Doesn't mean some effort shouldn't be put into seeing if it can be done.

    It's really easy to blame the corporation, especially since it's everybody's fav target Wall-Mart. Don't get me wrong, they are most definitely part of the blame and should be punished. Sue away. All of those stores who set up the stampede scanario are playing with fire. But at the same time it's really easy to place the blame on the big bad evil corporation and overlook that there were a bunch of lug-nuts who actually stomped people to death to get something on sale and save a few bucks. Just because the store had the sale and allowed the situation to develop doesn't mean the shoppers are obligated to trample others to death.

    Blame on the store for setting up the dangerous situation and blame on the idiots who took place in the dash for the cash.

    There is culpability on both sides.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 11-29-2008 at 11:41 AM.
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  3. #17
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    And how are you going to tell who was in line at what time? How do you put a face to a name? What if they paid by check? For all we know, the security camera caught the back of their heads.

    Even if you were able to round these people up, they coud just say they were pushed from behind by other shoppers and if they didn't keep moving, they woud suffer the same fate as the poor guy who got trampled.
    If they can find anyone that is culpable, they need to do it. They need to make an example out of someone. If you go to a bar tonight and get in a fight with someone over a pool cue you go to jail. Apparently it is ok to act like a complete idiot, get in fights, and kill someone for $20 off of a Guitar Hero bundle, as long as it is at Walmart on Black Friday.
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    The chances of actually being able to bring people up on charges for their participation is slim to none, I agree.

    Doesn't mean some effort shouldn't be put into seeing if it can be done.

    It's really easy to blame the corporation, especially since it's everybody's fav target Wall-Mart. Don't get me wrong, they are most definitely part of the blame and should be punished. Sue away. All of those stores who set up the stampede scanario are playing with fire. But at the same time it's really easy to place the blame on the big bad evil corporation and overlook that there were a bunch of lug-nuts who actually stomped people to death to get something on sale and save a few bucks. Just because the store had the sale and allowed the situation to develop doesn't mean the shoppers are obligated to trample others to death.

    Blame on the store for setting up the dangerous situation and blame on the idiots who took place in the dash for the cash.

    There is culpability on both sides.
    The problem with blaming the stompers is: "who is a 'shover' and who is the 'shoved?'" Who are the "offenders?" It's hard to tell. It's many individuals but one mind when you have a mob. Unfortunately, there's no telling apart the bad from the good.

    Did anyone want to prosecute individuals when the Who concert went awry in Cincy in 1979? Of course not; it was a tragedy caused by mob mentality--Riverfront Coliseum's security failures were culpable, not the mob, frankly.

    I'd like every person to act like a dottering 85 year old with a cane went it comes to moving in a large mass, but that's just not human nature. Young and strong people move rapidly and forcefully towards the things marketers tell us we MUST have or we're not worth a damn as human beings.

  5. #19
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganBuck View Post
    If they can find anyone that is culpable, they need to do it. They need to make an example out of someone. If you go to a bar tonight and get in a fight with someone over a pool cue you go to jail. Apparently it is ok to act like a complete idiot, get in fights, and kill someone for $20 off of a Guitar Hero bundle, as long as it is at Walmart on Black Friday.

    I agree that if they can find the responsible parties, they should do it. But it isn't as easy as finding someone who killed someone else at a bar with a pool cue. As FCB said, who are the shovers and who are the shovees? If I'm in the middle of that mess and you're behind me and we're both moving forward because if we stop we'll be trampled, who is responsible if someone falls down in front of me and you and 50 other people are pushing me forward? Maybe someone before me knocked that guy down and I didn't even realize it because it was too late.

    I'm the kind of guy who knows what he wants and isn't going to screw around in the store for an hour and a half. If I go in there 15 minutes after opening when there's no line and I find what I want, am I going to be prosecuted because when I paid for my stuff, it might coincide with the time they opened the store?
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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Cool..apparently we can now all do whatever we want as long as we have a big enough group of friends with us.

    The idea that the stompers weren't partly responsible is asanine. Pushing or pushed is inmaterial. These people could have simply wised up and left before the store even opened. Dont want to be part of a mob? Simple....stay out of the damn thing altogether.

    They chose to stay and chose to participate, therefore they are culpable. Some to a lesser degree (someone at the back of the herd) and some to a greater degree (those who physically trampled people, Wal-Mart).
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 11-29-2008 at 06:36 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

  7. #21
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    In 1994 I was in a similar situation in downtown Atlanta on New Years eve. We were waiting for the fireworks in a crowned plaza that was surrounded by walls. Someone let off some firecrackers that sounded like gun fire. It was crazy! Everybody moved toward the exit at once. You had no control over which direction your body was going. I was squeezed so hard I could hardly take a breath. I knew if I fell, I was dead. I feared for my life. Again, I had no control over which direction I was moving.

    To my knowledge, they have not released the video of the actual trampling. I would think the people at the front of the line was in the same situation I was in. They were pushed, and had to go forward.

    This also happened at "The Who" concert in Cincy back in either 79, or 80. I think 7 or 9 people died.
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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27955316/


    updated 5:51 a.m. ET, Sat., Nov. 29, 2008
    NEW YORK - Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify who trampled to death a Wal-Mart worker after a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down.

    Criminal charges were possible, but identifying individual shoppers in Friday's video may prove difficult, said Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, a Nassau County police spokesman.

    Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.

    Story continues below ↓
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    At least four other people, including a woman who was eight months pregnant, were taken to hospitals for observation or minor injuries. The store in Valley Stream on Long Island closed for several hours before reopening.

    Police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the Wal-Mart doors before its 5 a.m. opening at a mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the employee, identified by police as Jdimytai Damour, to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

    "This crowd was out of control," Fleming said. He described the scene as "utter chaos," and said the store didn't have enough security.

    Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help Damour were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store.

    Damour, 34, of Queens, was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead around 6 a.m., police said. The exact cause of death has not been determined.'

    'Savages'
    A 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to a hospital, where she and the baby were reported to be OK, said police Sgt. Anthony Repalone.

    Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

    "When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

    Wal-Mart Stores Inc., based in Bentonville, Ark., called the incident a "tragic situation" and said the employee came from a temporary agency and was doing maintenance work at the store. It said it tried to prepare for the crowd by adding staffers and outside security workers, putting up barricades and consulting police.

    "Despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred," senior Vice President Hank Mullany said in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those impacted."

    A woman reported being trampled by overeager customers at a Wal-Mart opening Friday in Farmingdale, about 15 miles east of Valley Stream, Suffolk County police said. She suffered minor injuries, but finished shopping before filling the report, police said.

    Shoppers around the country line up early outside stores on the day after Thanksgiving in the annual bargain-hunting ritual known as Black Friday. It got that name because it has historically been the day when stores broke into profitability for the full year.

    Items on sale at the Valley Stream Wal-Mart included a Samsung 50-inch Plasma HDTV for $798, a Bissel Compact Upright Vacuum for $28, a Samsung 10.2 megapixel digital camera for $69 and DVDs such as "The Incredible Hulk" for $9.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Cool..apparently we can now all do whatever we want as long as we have a big enough group of friends with us.

    The idea that the stompers weren't partly responsible is asanine. Pushing or pushed is inmaterial. These people could have simply wised up and left before the store even opened. Dont want to be part of a mob? Simple....stay out of the damn thing altogether.

    They chose to stay and chose to participate, therefore they are culpable. Some to a lesser degree (someone at the back of the herd) and some to a greater degree (those who physically trampled people).
    Hey if being guilty means being at the wrong place at the wrong time, might as well sue the family of the dead man for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    If I had to guess, I'd say the "most" guilty were the strongest or the fattest. Start there. Again, good luck with that.

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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Hey if being guilty means being at the wrong place at the wrong time, might as well sue the family of the dead man for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
    Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

    They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

    Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 11-29-2008 at 06:55 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Re: Is this world just nuts????



    Good luck identifying culpable parties in this mass of humanity.
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

    They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

    Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?

    Nobody went there with the intention to stomp someone to death. Thousands of other places had these sales and nobody died. I don't think people should be free to do whatever they want but even the police are saying identifying individual shoppers will be difficult. Even if they do, they are going to have problems deciding who was responsible.
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltlabner View Post
    Wrong place wrong time? You do realize these people CHOSE to get out of bed and go to the store right? There wasn't some invisible tractor beam forcing them to go there. Neither were they just happening along the side walk and got swept into the crowd.

    They made a conscious choice to be apart of what any reasonable person could foresee as a potential problem. They made a specific choice to line up in an effort to save some cash. They put THEMSELVES into this position. Wal-Mart made the position possible, and as such deserves to be sued to bajeebers, but the people involved in the mob made a choice to participate. They got in the car, drove to the store, saw the scene developing, walked out of their cars, walked up to the growing crowd and continued to stand there as the crowd got bigger.

    Or are people just not responsible for any choice they make? Is it always someone else's fault?
    So you have a couple grand criminals, do you? By and large it sounds like the biggest crime committed was shopping.

    It boils down to this: who had the power to control this situation? Let's say a customer who was waiting outside called the police, imagining that something bad might happen when the doors were opened. I'd argue that even if the police showed up, they'd find nothing to charge anyone with. I doubt they'd disperse the crowd. I imagine corporate would have had the officer's head who attempted to disperse a crowd of willing shoppers.

    However, security could have forced the crowd to form lines, let people in a bit at a time, etc.

    I'm trying to be practical. I guess if you want to pull the camera back and get a wide-angle view on this, then yeah, people are materialist imbeciles. No argument. I'd rather take a bullet between the eyes than shop among Black Friday crowds. I'm just not sure where you're going to find the "wrongdoers" here. As far as I'm concerned, Wal-Mart (and many other stores) are doing the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater by allowing these conditions to exist outside their stores.

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    2009: Fail Ltlabner's Avatar
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I don't think people should be free to do whatever they want but even the police are saying identifying individual shoppers will be difficult. Even if they do, they are going to have problems deciding who was responsible.
    Oh I agree. Probably impossible. Just saying that some people are actually responsible for this guy getting killed. I disagree with FCB's contention that the only guilty party here is Wal-Mart and advertisers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    I'm just not sure where you're going to find the "wrongdoers" here.
    I agree 100% that practically speaking nobody is likely to face any charges here. My guess is the police will go through the motions and after an appropriate amount of time declare that they can't actually find the person(s) responsible let alone build a case against them.

    I just disagree with your contention that physically stomping another human to death isn't "wrong" and that it's entirely Wal-Marts fault. I know your distain for corporations, market economies, and capitalism but it's beyond silly to lay this entirely at Wal-Mart's feet. The bulk of the blame? Definitely. The entire blame? Not a chance.
    Last edited by Ltlabner; 11-29-2008 at 08:21 PM.
    a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

    I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate

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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    1010WINS in NYC is reporting that the police are pouring over the security footage to try and identify guilty/culpable parties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
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    Re: Is this world just nuts????

    I just realized I was in that Wal Mart last week. This whole thing just saddens me to no end, not just because of the guy who died, but because of what it says about our society where rampant materialism is the order of the day, even to the point of trampling over other people just to get some thing that you so desperately need. Absolutely sickening.
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